Jackson Free Press

Salon's Joan Walsh reports that Howard Dean's critics have it wrong: "Does anyone really believe that former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean was borrowing a playbook from the GOP and telegraphing coded support for Southern racism when he said, in an interview last week, 'I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks'? Dean explained his unorthodox approach this way: 'We can't beat George Bush unless we appeal to a broad cross section of Democrats.' I'd add this: Democrats can't beat Bush unless they abandon their elitist approach to working-class cultural conservatives, especially in the South -- and the opportunistic, preachy pile-on by Dean's Democratic opponents after his remarks won't help."

Previous Comments

ID

136309

Comment

I found the comments by Dean annoying - it was just dumb to invoke the stereotype of poor white southerners driving around in pickup trucks with confederate flags on them. Especially since some of those trucks are driven by affluent whites. The NYTimes has the transcript of the democratic candidates speaking at Faneuil Hall in Boston, for MTV's "Rock the Vote." Dean comes across fairly well in his response to questioning over the issue - but he could have so easily avoided all this by just not invoking that tired old stereotype. Grr. Anyway, transcript is at http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/04/politics/campaigns/05TEXT-DEBATE.html?pagewanted=1

Author

Kate

Date

2003-11-05T10:58:50-06:00

ID

136310

Comment

I'm no fan of Dean, but he's right. The other Democratic candidates should have just bitten their tongues and kept silent. It appears they've already written off the southern white male vote.

Author

Ex

Date

2003-11-05T11:29:16-06:00

ID

136311

Comment

I had a similar reaction, Ex. Dean is right, not one of the Democratic candidates can beat Bush if they don't appeal to non-East Coast well-to-do voters. He probably envoked the stereotype without thinking, but the spirit of what he meant--without focusing unduly on the particular words--is in the right place. Also, he didn't present the stereotype as negative (though I admit that's how people usually see it). But anti-Bushers of all stripes do need to vote their economic interest instead of voting a "stereotype."

Author

Nia

Date

2003-11-05T11:43:12-06:00

ID

136312

Comment

The Northeastern Democrats, IMHO, are just being dumb-asses. The fact of the matter is there are plenty of Bush supporters riding around here in pick-up trucks with Confederate flags who are not benefiting from GOP policies (and many of them voted for Barbour last night). I believe Dean is right: Democrats need to start talking directly to these people about bread-and-butter problems, and they might start listening. The way it is now, the national GOP (and folks like Barbour) just use them and fan their fears -- it's classic playing poor folks against poor folks. I grew up watching it happen, and it's still happening. That's why the Barbour junk mades me so angry; the "Southern Strategy" is southerners' worst nightmare. But, ultimately, Dean is right: Democrats need to stop enabling the GOP on this race-pandering, and need to talk to the working class, even those with racist symbols hanging in their pickups. The Northeastern view that southerners should just be written off as racists and hopeless will get them exactly what they have now: Bush in the White House. Here's another story about the flap: http://www.sunherald.com/mld/sunherald/7182642.htm?template=contentModules/printstory.jsp

Author

ladd

Date

2003-11-05T13:47:54-06:00

ID

136313

Comment

I was much more annoyed by Sharpton's comments than by Dean's. And who the hel* are they to demand an apology of anybody?

Author

Nia

Date

2003-11-05T14:21:35-06:00

ID

136314

Comment

Yeah, I agree Nia, Sharpton just needs to shut his trap on this one. And it is hard to imagine him demanding an apology from someone for a racist trick (not that I think Dean's comment was a trick; it sounded like straight talk to me). Sharpton is being hypocritical here; he demands straight talk (which isn't always perfectly stated); then he goes on the attack to twist Dean's words into a different meaning. Sharpton is one of the best speakers I've heard in person, but he does have keen aim at the foot of the black community way too often, IMHO. And I'm beginning to wish Kerry would just go away. He has about as much chance as Tsongas did back when. He's out of touch with America.

Author

ladd

Date

2003-11-05T14:27:35-06:00

ID

136315

Comment

I think Sharpton needs to keep his trap shut on a whole lotta' ones. Obviously, I don't speak for all black people, but most black people I know make fun of Sharpton and think he racebaits as well as the GOP, maybe better. He fans the flames of racism among poor blacks the way GOPers do among poor whites. True, he does often speak frankly about issues that other politicians won't touch. But he quickly ruins it, the very next time he opens his mouth. The only black person I know who speaks positively about Sharpton is a Republican. Go figure. Kerry? Kerry who? :-)

Author

Nia

Date

2003-11-05T14:43:44-06:00

ID

136316

Comment

What's wrong with Kerry? (50 words or less, please) BTW, I also voted for Tsongas in '92. I must be out of touch with America. ;-)

Author

Ex

Date

2003-11-06T01:05:13-06:00

ID

136317

Comment

Here's a great editorial from today's LA Times about Sharpton. http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-hutchinson6nov06,1,2114700.story?coll=la-headlines-oped-manual Ex: The perception I have of Kerry is that he's a non-candidate. But I admit that I don't know as much about him as I do about the other hopefuls.

Author

Nia

Date

2003-11-06T11:17:18-06:00

ID

136318

Comment

Dean explained what he meant, and I think he's right. The issue is that there are a lot of poor people down here, but because of that stupid divisive flag, they vote republican, and against what is best for their own interests. Dean wants to be the leader for all of America, not just the dem states. If you get these people to get behind the dem party, where they should be - uniting southern whites and blacks, then Bush doesn't stand a chance. this is from the transcript: Question: "I recently read a comment that you made where you said that you wanted to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags on their pickup trucks. When I read that comment, I was extremely offended. Could you explain to me how you plan on being sensitive to needs and issues regarding slavery and African-Americans, after making a comment of that nature? " DEAN: Sure. Martin Luther King said that it was his dream that the sons of slave holders and the sons of slaves sit down around a table and make common good. There are 102,000 kids in South Carolina right now with no health insurance. Most of those kids are white. The legislature cut $70 million out of the school system. Most of the kids in the public school system are white. We have had white Southern working people voting Republican for 30 years, and they've got nothing to show for it. They vote for a president who cut 1 percent of this country's taxpayers' taxes by $26,000, which is more than they make. And I think we need to talk to white Southern workers about how they vote, because when white people and black people and brown people vote together in this country, that's the only time that we make social progress, and they need to come back to the Democratic Party.

Author

Tre'

Date

2003-11-06T18:11:59-06:00

ID

136319

Comment

I think he's right, too. I just wish he hadn't invoked the stereotype of confederate flags on pickup trucks. If only because alot of those flags on pick up trucks are driven by affluent lawyers.

Author

Kate

Date

2003-11-06T18:25:52-06:00

ID

136320

Comment

I wouldn't say he did invoke the sterotype. He didn't say ALL southerners drive around in pickups with confederate flags. I can probably go outside right now and count 10 trucks (and cars) with canfederate flags on them in the parkng lot. I'd bet all of these people will vote republican. Dean wants them to get with the dems. What's the big deal?

Author

Tre'

Date

2003-11-07T11:11:09-06:00

ID

136321

Comment

I just think he could have made the same point with a slightly different turn of phrase, and easily avoided the predictable brouhaha we've been subjected to. And Tre, I saw your letter to the editor in the CL today. Good one.

Author

Kate

Date

2003-11-07T12:12:03-06:00

ID

136322

Comment

I love this guy: Here's another great editorial from Krugman; this one is about Dean and Flag-gate. http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/07/opinion/07KRUG.html

Author

Nia

Date

2003-11-07T13:44:00-06:00

ID

136323

Comment

Yeah, Tre, maybe you ought to think about writing some opinion pieces for the JFP. ;-) I tend to agree with Tre that he didn't say that it was all southerners. Maybe, like Philip says, it's the Culture of Honor at play again. It doesn't make sense to me to ignore all these pickups (and Madison County SUVs) driving around with Confederate flags, even if they're part of the state flag. They're trying to say something; listening would problem be a good idea. Ignoring certainly isn't.

Author

ladd

Date

2003-11-07T13:51:37-06:00

ID

136324

Comment

... would PROBABLY be a good idea ... (oops)

Author

ladd

Date

2003-11-07T13:52:48-06:00

ID

136325

Comment

Dean didn't invoke the stereotype. That's why the position that his rivlas took seems opportunist.

Author

Nia

Date

2003-11-07T15:19:03-06:00

ID

136326

Comment

Nia and Tre', explain to me how southerners in pick up trucks with confederate flags is not a stereotype?

Author

Kate

Date

2003-11-07T16:14:34-06:00

ID

136327

Comment

I'm not saying it isn't a stereotype. I'm sayig that Dean wasn't talking about all southerners when he uttered those words. Absolutely he could have chosen more eloquent, less tension-filled words to make his point, but I don't think he meant all southerners. I think he meant those who cling to the flag as a symbol of their heritage, can't/won't see it for its other symbolism, and so vote for anyone who waves said flag even though they may be voting agaisnt their economic, and political, interest. There's a great letter to Dean from a civil rights attorney on alternet.org (http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=17138). Sometmies the stuff on this site is left-leaning and well-meaning without being well thought out, but generally it's a great place for news stories and angles that mainstream media won't cover. Plus Molly Ivins!

Author

Nia

Date

2003-11-07T16:47:53-06:00

ID

136328

Comment

thanks for the comments about the letter today. I wrote it three weeks ago, and was surprised to see it today. I had to write another one today in response to the one that ended "no further debate needed". That just made me feel ill, and made me want to debate further. Kate wrote: "explain to me how southerners in pick up trucks with confederate flags is not a stereotype?" because, like I said earlier, he didn't say ALL southerners. Although, if you look around, there are a lot of rebel flag lovin'-pickup drivin' people around here. I agree with you that he should have phrased it better. It seems like his fellow dems are the one giving him the most grief. Now, the repubs are jumping on. Bill O'Really? and Michael (Weiner) savage are having so much fun with this.

Author

Tre'

Date

2003-11-07T16:55:57-06:00

ID

136329

Comment

Okay, I'm just still not clear why you and Tre' say he 'did not invoke a stereotype.' I mean, it is a stereotype, and he did bring it up. No one ever said he meant all southerners. His opponents just tried to make it seem like he was embracing racists, instead of (trying to) embrace poor white southerners. And for me, confederate flag on a pick up truck is not equivalent to poor white southerners - I've seen too many rich white southerners with them. I agree with your points in general - just confused about the comments about not invoking a stereotype.

Author

Kate

Date

2003-11-07T16:56:15-06:00

ID

136330

Comment

Exactly, Kate: Poor, white southerner and F150 pick-up drivers are not the same group of folks. Dean said that Dems should appeal to southern guys who drive pick-up trucks with Rebel flags on them. People stereotypically associate that description with poor, white, racist, southerners. We know better. And I think Dean does, too. I'm not articulating this well, but here's another stab at it. Earlier I said: "Also, he didn't present the stereotype [he just gave description] as negative (though I admit that's how people usually see it)."

Author

Nia

Date

2003-11-07T17:15:54-06:00

ID

136331

Comment

Of course it's a stereotype, and it's based on a lot of actual cases. But, in this case, I don't find the stereotype particularly offensive; he clearly wasn't implying all white southerners are racists (which is more than I can say for Mr. Barbour's campaign). I'd argue that we all use stereotypes every day in some way; my point is that he was onto something really good and his opportunistic opponents are parsing him words to try to make him look bad -- while ignoring the substance of what he said. And he came back and explained it in a very satisfying way to me. This is one of the reason we don't enough good people running for office: We expect them to talk in perfect sound bites, we lift their comments out of context, and then try to twist the meaning, rather than say, "Now, I don't quite understand what you meant. Can you explain it?" Then, we base our reaction on that response, instead of this parsing that's going to put Bush back in the White House if Dems aren't careful. And the Demcratic Leadership Council gets scarier by the day if you ask me. Meantime, the Republicans run entire campaigns based on actual racism and get away with it. They, too, get scarier by the way. I accept what Dean was saying as smart, even if he didn't put it perfectly. I don't expect perfection; I expect sincerity, compassion and honesty -- and the willingness to explain things when asked.

Author

ladd

Date

2003-11-07T18:09:11-06:00

ID

136332

Comment

And Nia, I know some poor white drivers of F150 pick-up trucks, and a lot of them have rebel (or at least state) flags. People will live in trailers and go deep into debt to drive a big-ass pick-up truck in these parts. Oops, was that a stereotype?

Author

ladd

Date

2003-11-07T18:10:56-06:00

ID

136333

Comment

Uh, my mom drives an F150--with the state flag on it. But she doesn't live in a trailer. And it goes without saying that she's neither a man nor white. :-) Donna said that better than me. I think we mean the same thing. What I should have said was that those two groups are not necessarily identical though people assume they are. People may easily fit into either category or both. And re Dean's choice of words, I was trying to get at it earlier when I said that by using those particular words Dean "envoked the stereotype without thinking." I don't think he meant anything negative by it. He was trying--ineptly--to describe a particular subset of voters.

Author

Nia

Date

2003-11-07T18:25:48-06:00

ID

136334

Comment

http://slate.msn.com/id/2090855/ slate has made picking your democratic candidate quick and relatively painless, and with sound efx! funny if not incredibly dynamic...

Author

lowgreynite

Date

2003-11-07T19:08:35-06:00

ID

136335

Comment

The Democrats are so screwed it's stopped being funny and edged into pitiful. Their prep-school pretty boys want the votes of Southern crackers but get castigated by their colleagues when they say as much, while the voice of reason is supplied a racist demagogue who gave us Tawana Brawley. http://www.hotlicks.blogspot.com/2003_11_02_hotlicks_archive.html#106809845063639519 When you people want to stop nominating liberal northeastern elites (who'll be lucky to carry anything other than Massachusetts and perhaps California), and rejoin American politics, just let us know.

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-11-12T12:19:33-06:00