Jackson Free Press

In the Southern Style section of The Clarion-Ledger on Sunday, Nov. 23, Orley Hood worked himself into a lather: "The single dumbest paragraph I've read in this newspaper in the past year is a direct quotation from Robert Moore, chief of the Jackson Police Department: 'The perception comes from other people who want to perpetuate the negative image. The newspaper and TV stations go out and find somebody who will say they are leaving Jackson because this happened or they are leaving Jackson because of that.'"

Not to be outdone, Hood set out immediately to one-up the chief and write the most asinine thing The Clarion-Ledger has printed in years: "We're not blaming you for crime, Chief. You didn't do it; criminals did it. Your job is to stop them. So do it. Shut up and do it and quit making excuses so juvenile that they take our breath away." [Emphasis added.]

Aside from the extraordinarily disrespectful tone that Hood takes here—one that is completely inappropriate given that the chief's quote is an answer to a Clarion-Ledger reporter's question—this is just the latest example in a trend that has got to stop.

The Clarion-Ledger is not an innocent messenger that simply gathers balanced news. It needs to start taking responsibility for its errors in judgement and begin to fulfill its own leadership role in Jackson.

Perception vs. Perception-Gate
First things, first. As we have documented, The Clarion-Ledger started "Perception Gate" last spring. A reporter appeared to use quotes from different parts of Chief Moore's April 9 press conference as a single statement, including a zinger that quotes him saying: "perception is fueling this idea that there is too much crime."

According to our notes, what the Chief actually said at that press conference is that "perception is fueling too much fear out there" which it was and does—the fear factor is widely known among those who study crime and community policing. Fear has permeated the Jackson metro and dominated its media coverage in a year, according to The Clarion-Ledger, when major crime is up only 1.2 percent, even after a sharp spike last spring.

We might conclude, then, that the crime problem—and, yes, crime is a problem—has been sensationalized.

Where is the 128-point headline saying "Jackson Major Crime Up Only 1.2% Overall in 2003" on the front page of the newspaper? It's not there. The first mention of this statistic by the stat-obssesed C-L was in the bowels of a story headlined, "Dollars Shifting to the Suburbs" (10/21/03, "Changing Face," page 2). Why bury it? We have a theory. The Clarion-Ledger has been wrong on the crime/perception story, and they know it.

In fact, The Clarion-Ledger has done a textbook job of anecdotal journalism when it comes to Jackson crime. On Oct. 24, The C-L ran a front-page story called "Break-ins Prompt Some in City to Take Up Arms." The story features one guy who says he's changing his gun storage habits because of crime in his neighborhood. Yes—the story mentions the two burglar shootings that have happened recently, but read the headline again: "break-ins prompt some in city to take up arms" [emphasis added]. One Jackson guy now sleeps with his shotgun, and that's a front-page, statewide story.

Leadership and Civic Journalism
The C-L's latest tack for spinning its zealous indictment of the City is to play the "blaming the media" card, suggesting that the mayor and police chief are just shooting the messenger on the crime issue. But the messenger isn't reporting these issues with balance—bad crime statistics get big headlines, better statistics get small ones, if any—and they're seriously stretching journalistic boundaries with the "gotcha" methods they employ when quoting these men.

Bill Hunsberger, publisher of the Clarion-Ledger, mentioned "civic journalism" in his column that closed out the "Changing Faces" series (Oct. 26). But "civic journalism" is more than a pat slogan—it's best practices that The Clarion-Ledger has yet to implement.

"Part of the [civic journalism] experiment was to see if we could build a journalism that abandoned the attack dog role, but still retained the watchdog role, while also assuming the duties of a guide dog, helping people figure out what kind of roles they could play in a daily democracy," said Jan Shaffer, executive director of the Pew Center for Civic Journalism in a speech in 2002.

The Clarion-Ledger has an important leadership role—a watch dog and guide dog role—that it's shirking. The "Who, us, we're just reporting 'both sides'?" angle doesn't quite fly, particularly when it comes to the issue of Jackson's crime "Perception Gate" problem.

In a Nov. 16 column, executive editor Ronnie Agnew called for "leadership" from the mayor's office and the City on the crime issue. That leadership also needs to be found in The Clarion-Ledger boardrooms and offices. Yes, we absolutely need efficient decision-makers and public servants in city government, with their egos in check, just like we need fewer dangerous and unnecessary car chases by the JPD. But we also need responsible news coverage grounded in civic journalism principles.

In this Together
Hood is right about one thing—the chief didn't commit the crimes. But he's wrong about another—it's not Moore's job to stop them. The police investigate crimes and arrest suspects. The D.A.'s office charges suspects and prosecutes crimes. Those are their jobs.

It's up to all of us—citizens, newspapers, businesses and community leaders—in partnership with JPD and the sheriff's office, to stop crime. Yes, JPD needs to facilitate that, but so does The Clarion-Ledger. Where's the four-part series on community policing? Where's the call to action in editorials for neighborhood watch organizations? We need civic action instead of more whining.

The chief is working to implement community policing, which will help both with the perception of crime and crime prevention. The Clarion-Ledger needs to not just say it supports a vibrant city, but actually get on the side of the city's residents and start talking up community policing, including how citizens can get involved. Yes, we need to take a close look, pro and con, at how the City handles crime, crime prevention and customer service. That's our civic journalism responsibility — not this "attack dog" approach in interviews with the mayor and police chief.

Second, we call on The Clarion-Ledger to hire an ombudsman. (An ombudsman is an independent voice on the newspaper's staff that fields reader complaints and researches inaccuracies in reporting.) The point of an ombudsman is to improve community relations by giving citizens an advocate within the paper. The C-L has made too many errors in judgment not to pursue this course. Gannett papers have them in Tennessee, Delaware, New York and elsewhere. With the evident hostility between The Clarion-Ledger and the City, we think it's time for such a reader advocate in Jackson as well.
—Todd Stauffer and Donna Ladd

Previous Comments

ID

69017

Comment

Some quick reading on media coverage of violence and creating harmful perceptions: TV News and the Culture of Violence http://www.bigmedia.org/texts6.html A criminal-justice syllabus that talks about the importance of dealing with crime perception, which also lists many criminal-justice resources (ahem), including a textbook called "Creating Fear: News and the Construction of Crisis," by David, Altheide,† 2002.† (Note the Sept. 8 entry) http://utminers.utep.edu/dlevin/syllab430003.htm Columbia Journalism Review: Should the Coverage Fit the Crime? http://archives.cjr.org/year/96/3/coverage.asp Samples of media reports done by folks smart enough to understand that crime perception is often different from crime reality ... and that it matters: http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/news/7oclocknews/features/streetcrime_170703.shtml Story about overblown crime in Florida and dangers of "perception" and "media-driven 'panics' about violent crime, even in the face of declining crime rates, and the subsequent effects on society": http://www.research.fsu.edu/researchr/springsummer98/features/fear.html A master plan for an upstate NY town that realizes that it takes more than police to fight both crime and perception; it takes smart planning and activity: http://www.scpl.org/masterplan/appendixb.html Youth crime on decline; coverage suggests opposite: http://www.racematters.org/youthcrimedeclinemediaopp.htm More sources on "the rhetoric of crime and punishment": http://www.vcsun.org/~battias/class/446/rsch.html

Author

ladd

Date

2003-11-26T21:24:21-06:00

ID

69018

Comment

An online "exam" on media-driven crime perception. http://cwabacon.pearsoned.com/bookbind/pubbooks/albanese2_ab/chapter1/essay12/deluxe-content.html Its intro: "The Media and Crime: Perception Versus Reality A. Often the media paint a totally different picture of the incidence and demographics of crime than is in fact reported by police agencies. The media typically report on crimes of passion or violence, when these actually comprise a very small percentage of crimes committed. The media also report more often on crimes committed in core cities rather than suburbs. The media are also more likely to report crimes committed by minorities." "Explanations for media decisions focus on ratings. 'Good news doesn't make news' still rules the newsroom. Homicide is exciting, for instance, while the local high school valedictorian acceptance speech is not so exciting. Major media outlets tend to be located in core cities. Convenience is another factor. Because of the demographic composition of core cities, minorities are more likely to be the criminals seen on the 5 o'clock news." Sound familiar?

Author

ladd

Date

2003-11-26T21:27:17-06:00

ID

69019

Comment

From the journalists' guidebook, "Covering Crime and Justice," Chapter 1: "Lincoln Steffens, the famed muckraker, worked as a police reporter for the New York Evening Post a century ago. In his autobiography, Steffens wrote about a spurious burglary crime wave that sprang from politics and the competitive zeal among newspapers: "'Every now and then there occurs the phenomenon called a crime wave. New York has such waves periodically; other cities have them; and they sweep over the public and nearly drown the lawyers, judges, preachers, and other leading citizens who feel that they must explain and cure these extraordinary outbreaks of lawlessness. Their diagnoses and their remedies are always the same: the disease is lawlessness; the cure is more law, more arrests, swifter trials, and harsher penalties.'" "Little has changed since Steffens' time. Crime waves still bubble up. Some are legitimate, some bogus. Often, they are sparked by an appalling example of a particular crime, such as a school shooting or child abduction. Law enforcers and journalists begin highlighting look-alike examples from the daily log of crime, and a false trend is born ñ false because often the crimes had been happening in obscurity all along. The attention simply moved them higher on the news agenda." "Politics and finances often play a role." http://www.justicejournalism.org/crimeguide/chapter01/sidebars/chap01_xside7.html

Author

ladd

Date

2003-11-26T22:58:16-06:00

ID

69020

Comment

One more thing: While looking at best practices for covering crime, we should mention that the Northside Sun's practice of mentioning (the black) race in many of its crime stories (with no other identifying factors) serves no valid or ethical purpose: From the same guidebook, Chapter 4: "Keith Woods of the Poynter Institute, a leading thinker on race issues in journalism, says reporters must understand the history of racial identifiers in news stories to put their decisions about when to use them into perspective. In his article 'The Language of Race,' which is available at http://www.poynter.org, Woods said that newspapers traditionally have used racial identifiers to let people know they were reading about people who were not white. 'Racial identifiers were used Ö to call attention to the criminal, immoral, or threatening acts of other racial and ethnic groups to demonstrate that the stereotypes about those groups were true. In many American newsrooms, things only began to change in the early 1970s,' Woods wrote. Woods says that racial descriptions of criminals do little to give people a mental picture of what the assailant looked like. Within each race are myriad shades of skin color, hair characteristics and styles, eye shapes, cheekbone placements, nose shapes and mouth shapes. To say someone is black doesn't tell a reader whether they should picture someone with skin the hue of say, an espresso or a latte. Many reporters choose to include racial identifiers as part of a fairly detailed description that includes information about physical stature, clothing, unusual physical characteristics and perhaps the description of a vehicle. Woods challenges reporters to question each use of a racial identifier in stories. If they don't tell the reader what someone looks like, they don't belong, he says. News organizations should think about what their standard is for including race in a story description and practice that consistently." Perhaps someone should mention to Mr. Emmerich that it's 2003.

Author

ladd

Date

2003-11-26T23:03:53-06:00

ID

69021

Comment

Donna, The girl who does the Sun's crime stories is black.

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-11-26T23:56:48-06:00

ID

69022

Comment

Doesn't matter one iota. It's a common misconception that a black person (or other person of color) cannot do something regarding their own race that is (1) unethical, (2) distasteful, or even (3) racist. That assumption ranks right up there with "He can't be racist; he has a black friend/lover/employee, etc." Even if the woman doesn't mind doing it, it doesn't make it an excusable journalistic practice. Besides, if the black reporter is told/paid to report race in these crime stories when there's no discernible reason to, perhaps the, er, "girl" as you call her -- how old is she, anyway? -- needs the job. They're harder to come by than they used to be.

Author

ladd

Date

2003-11-27T00:06:03-06:00

ID

69023

Comment

Donna, The Sun doesn't take a number of stories in which the perpetrators are a mix of races, and choose only the ones with black perps. It simply reports the most newsworthy crime in the 'northside' section of the city. Liberals... "progressives"... are fanatical about making sure the whole world knows how many blacks are being admitted to college, or how many are managing major league baseball teams, or how few have been admitted to this country club or that. So why are you so squeamish about reporting when they commit crimes? The fact that young back males predominate in these reports has nothing to do with racism or not following "best practices" or any of that nonsense. When story after story after story refers to a black male, it serves a perfectly useful - indeed, an important - purpose. The cumulative effect, which is to make clear that virtually all such crime in this area is perpetrated by young black males, is just as important as the fact that the crimes are committed at all. *Your* problem with it, I would wager, is that the Sun's practice doesn't suit your agenda and the agenda of JFP, which is to use charades disguised as high-brow "best practices" to mask the reality that the lion's share of violent crime in Jackson and other places is committed - way out of proportion to their percentage of the population as a whole - by young black males. As long as you and yours can make the reports read, "a young male" instead of "a young black male," then you can fill column inches talking about "solutions" and "approaches," and appear to be seriously discussing the problem of crime, without ever having to ask - much less try to answer - the real questions, which are: Why are most violent crimes in Jackson committed by young black males? And: What is the black community doing about it? And: Why isn't whatever they're doing working? No one - not you, your magazine, the Cledge, the Johnson administration - is going to be able to do anything about it until they come to grips with reality, and stop whitewashing the facts to suit an agenda.

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-11-27T01:00:08-06:00

ID

69024

Comment

Donna, I assure you this "girl" (she's in her mid- to late-twenties, I'd guess) is not desperate for any job that comes with a paycheck.

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-11-27T01:03:17-06:00

ID

69025

Comment

These aren't "my" or the "JFP's" best practices that I'm quoting here, as much as you'd like to marginalize what you may not agree with into some damned old liberal agenda. (Yawn.) The fact is, no matter how many ways one tries to obfuscate it, The Northside Sun is plastering stories with race identified for no logical reason over its paper nearly every week. This specifically was a practice that most publications in the country abandoned by the 1970s, as the journalism guidebook points out. Of course, you might argue, Mississippi doesn't need to follow suit with such "highbrow" (?!?) practices. We can just keep doing it the old way and getting pissed everytime some "outsider" accuses us of race stupidity. That'll show dem agitators! Doh. Or, we could do our entire state, and its residents, a favor and abandon our more tasteless old habits -- you know play to our positives and improve our negatives. Isn't that what we adults tell children to do? And perhaps it's might serve our economic interests at the same time. The fact is, I don't have a problem identifying someone's race, as long as there's a reason to. And I certainly don't mind having serious discussions about problems like black-on-black crime, a dialogue that Chief Moore has tried to open with the media now for months, and that we plan to get to in 2004. I guarantee you that we're more willing to look at tough, complicated issues than anyone else in town. It's funny that the media with the more resources are the worst perpetrators of drive-by journalism. Context, ladies and gentlemen, context. The truth is, Greg, the media here is way behind the curve on "best practices" of all sorts. I'm not sure why that is -- do they not read their own industry's "best practices" guidelines? -- but the community is not better off because of it. Bad media can have devastating effects on a community, and part of the reason we are here is to challenge the local media to do their jobs better.

Author

ladd

Date

2003-11-27T01:40:31-06:00

ID

69026

Comment

The fact is, no question needs to be asked here more than: "Why are so many crimes being perpetrated by black males?" What has created such an atmosphere of hopelessness that crime is so attractive to too many. (Ask this of the Confederate truck guys, while you're at it.) But, I guarantee you, Greg, that the answer isn't simple, and it is not the one many folks want to hear. The answer (which I believe can be summarized into one word, maybe two, but I'm not going to go there, yet) is complicated, and it's going to involve everyone in the community -- "metro," too -- if they wish to change it and really help alleviate crime. But, to be honest with you, race is not really an issue I prefer to engage in much with you. I've seen your postings on it to date, and I don't think we have much common ground. The fact is, you seem terribly under-informed about even the basics about race and crime. The fact is, blacks are disproportionately represented in the criminal-justice system. They serve tougher sentences for lesser crimes. One in four of every young black males has been suspended or expelled from school, and often for much lesser offenses than white kids who aren't kicked out. The media, in particular, is terrible about over-reporting crimes by blacks, even as they under-report crimes by whites. (I might start believing your assertion about the Northside Sun when I see every white man arrested in Northeast Jackson or Madison for a violent stranger or domestic crime appear on the front page there. Meantime, I believe I'll hold onto my skeptical streak.) I have plenty of primary sources to back up these statements; no time to trot them out now, but you'll be seeing them in the pages of the JFP, so just keep an eye out. As I always say, I believe that we can, must hold more than one idea at once: thus, I believe we can take a tough look at what is causing young black men to commit so many crimes, even as we understand that they are overrepresented in the criminal-justice system (and crime logs). And here's a hint: the first is often affected by the second. As for the "agenda" of the JFP, I can think of no one less qualified to address that than you. The truth is, we wear our "agenda" on our sleeves and have since day one and, yes, celebrating diversity and promoting racial reconciliation in the city and the state are high on the list. Damn, you caught us. Complex, informed discussions ... yes. Antiquated race IDs ... no. If there's not a reason to mention race in the media, or in some crime log, it starts smelling real rotten in the state of Mississippi. Now, Todd's calling me to sign off. We actually leave on that trip in a few hours. Have a safe, loving Thanksgiving.

Author

ladd

Date

2003-11-27T01:45:31-06:00

ID

69027

Comment

Donna, As usual you're side-stepping the whole issue, this time by begging the question. It's PRECISELY these "best practices" that I'm questioning. Explain how it's "best" that newspapers remove all references to race in crime stories. How is that an improvement over including them? The answer is: It isn't. At some point in the recent past a few journalistic poobahs noticed that the facts of crime didn't conform to their social theory, so they decided to remove the evidence by establishing this so-called "best practice" guideline. Removing all reference to race masks the fact that most crime is committed by people of a certain race, or that people of a certain race commit crimes out of proportion to their percentage of the population. That's called whitewashing, and it's something that should repulse conscientious journalists. Speaking of conscientious, you don't know jack shite about my knowledge of race and crime. If you've got some sort of test that measures it, send it over. If you think you've taken that measure from a few blog posts, then by all means quote them. Otherwise, I'll thank you to keep your smarmy implications that I'm a racist to yourself, and address the issue at hand on the basis of what appears in this thread. Let's say for argument's sake that you're right about blacks being convicted at higher rates and sentenced more harshly than their white counterparts. Let's say, even, that blacks are in general convicted at higher rates than whites. (You say you have sources... surely it wouldn't be that hard to trot them out). But surely you're not saying that, even after factoring all that out, that blacks still don't commit crimes at far higher rates than whites? That would put you in a lunatic fringe that not even most mainstream black activists inhabit. They're quick to point out conviction and sentencing disparities, but virtually all of them stop well short of saying that they don't actually commit the crimes in question. In other words, that young black males don't commit crimes at an alarmingly higher rate than other racial segments.

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-11-27T03:09:37-06:00

ID

69028

Comment

THE QUESTION IS SIMPLE: If you have no problem reporting that black college admissions lag behind whites', or that black SAT scores lag behind whites', or that blacks are under-represented as baseball managers and head football coaches, then what's the problem with reporting that a black person held up a woman in the parking lot of a northeast Jackson apartment complex? If it's newsworthy that blacks make up the fastest-growing segment of the middle class, or that blacks are making unprecedented inroads into corporate management, then why do you squirm and shout about reporting that four black males broke into a home in a quiet neighborhood and held a gun to the head of an 8-year old girl? When blacks are in crisis because they aren't scoring high enough on SAT's, or when they're not making as much money as whites, it becomes a crusade to bring up their race. But when an entire generation of black males are in crisis because they're more likely to be in prison than in college, we implement "best practices" that keep these facts out of the public eye? The only conclusion I can draw is that it's okay to report black successes, but not okay to report their failures. So how in the hell can you call that responsible journalism?

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-11-27T03:09:49-06:00

ID

69029

Comment

GREG, Alright my turn. To an extent I understand and respect your points. However, I do not agree with them. Now, let's start with your initial question about what is the black community doing about the fact that alot of young black males are committing crimes. I do not agree or in any way support the crimes that are being committed but let us look at the core reason why these crimes are being committed. Ok, we have burglary, auto theft, selling of druggs and armed robbery. All of those things have one thing in common: MONEY. All of those crimes are commited in an attempt to get money or something of significant monetary value. The great philosopher Mohatma Ghandi said "Economic Equality is the master key to nonviolent independence". I ask you Greg (be honest and ask yourself) in this country do we have Economic Equality? The answer is NOOOO we do not. Thus the have nots want to become the those who have. Sure, there are many of the have nots who do not have because of their own laziness, bad choices ,and etc; Yet there are many many more who do not have because they cannot get anyone to give them an opportunity. When I went to USM in 1999, it was like this most of the whites had the decent jobs around campus while most of the blacks worked in the cafeteria. Greg, I can go on and on with examples from college and pro football but what is the use we all know the truth. Until there is full economic equality, we are going to have these same problems.

Author

Fry

Date

2003-11-27T10:48:20-06:00

ID

69030

Comment

Greg, Also, have you ever sat down with a young black male and just really tried to talk to them? You would be amazed because most of them will tell you that they do not want to commit crimes. Then they tell how they went to fill out several job applications and no one ever called them back and they wanted money in their pocket to pay for the things they needed and wanted. It is very frustrating to see the glaring discrepancy in results and outcomes. And the thing is adults are the ones who act like they do not know what is going on or just want to ignore it. For instance; I had two kids a white girl and a black girl in the class talking to me. The black girl asked about why her friend got suspended for so many days for smoking at school and the white girl quickly pointed out that she did the same exact thing and only got a warning. Though, that is a small example it is very insightful about the race problems that exist today. After reading several of your responses it is evident that you are quite intelligent. So tell me where is the logic behind the statistics that say an average sentence of a convicted drug seller is 10-20 years in prison but a murderer can serve as little as 7-10 years? No matter how you look at it that makes no sense at all. Not to mention how you can rob a company out of millions of dollars and negatively affect thousands of families like Mr. Worldcom himself did, but if you rob a grocery store for 54 dollars you will be locked up and sentences to 71/2 years whereas Mr. Worldcom has yet to serve one day in jail? Thus, like I said the key is economic eqality. You cannot deny that. Greg just look at it this way. The blacks who in some shape and form who has accomplished economic equality are not the ones that are are committing the crimes. The high ranking officials at Coca Cola and AOL Time Warner (who are black)

Author

Fry

Date

2003-11-27T11:11:36-06:00

ID

69031

Comment

GREG, continued from above........... are not the ones who are committing any of the crimes that affected the stock market like Worldcom and Enron and maybe even Martha Stewart. You do not see Oprah involved in any stock scams do you? So until a miracle occurs and somehow economic equality is shared by US citizens the same problems will always exists. Greg how about me and you sit down and talk one day about these issues. Maybe we both can learn something from one another.

Author

Fry

Date

2003-11-27T11:16:02-06:00

ID

69032

Comment

Donna, See this is why I town hall meeting is needed very badly. I know many many more people feel the way Greg feels. It is essential that people try to learn from one another about why this and why that. Maybe if we can talk about these issues we can find reasonable solutions to the problems.....

Author

Fry

Date

2003-11-27T11:18:11-06:00

ID

69033

Comment

Greg, when was the last time you heard "A white man robbed a bank"? I'm not talking about the "APBs" the news throws out identifying a perp but the actual report of the criminal's capture... I can honestly say I have never heard such a statement... with ALL HONESTY. Of course, maybe I don't listen closely enough but I do recall hearing black used to describe a criminal upon capture. Just my two bits! Gobble! Gobble!

Author

Knol Aust

Date

2003-11-27T16:58:18-06:00

ID

69034

Comment

Fry, You are absolutely correct that drug sentences are out of line. It is a travesty that you can kill and be back on the street in 10 years, but dealing crack - and even less serious drugs - can get you twice that much. For what it's worth, I think the war on drugs has been a catastrophic failure. I happen to be in favor of drug legalization on a scale that would give Bill Bennett conniptions. You are also correct that guys like Ken Lay, Bernie Ebbers, et al should be busting rocks for a long, long time. I am obviously a laissez-faire capitalist, but I also happen to think that unless the millions of small investors in America can invest with confidence, our economy will suffer. For that reason, I favor harsh penalties for those who betray the trust of their investors. However, let's look more carefully at what what you're saying, and what you're asking me to consider seriously. You're saying first of all that economic inequality is the root of so-called "money" crimes; that until there is "economic equality" there will always be a problem with have-nots committing crimes designed to turn them into "haves." There are several things wrong with this line of reasoning. First, "economic equality" is, pure and simple, a noble-sounding term for communism, and as such, simply doesn't work. Let me explain:

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-11-28T00:58:31-06:00

ID

69035

Comment

Just as there are wide variations in, say, the abilities of athletes, or scientists, or writers, there are wide variations in the ability of different people to make money. Fair or not, there is just no way that someone of less-than average intelligence, from a poor background, with no one to guide his education, is going to have as good a shot at making a good living as someone of above-average intelligence, from a wealthy background, with a strong family who will help see to it that he's well-educated and makes the most of the contacts and opportunities that are available to him. Add to the variations of natural ability things like luck, family inheritances, etc., and the idea that "economic equality" can ever exist in anything like a natural state is a fantasy. Thus, the only way to achieve what you probably mean by "economic equality" - where the gap in income is drastically reduced or eliminated - is to engineer it through wealth redestribution. This is the Marxist philosophy of "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need" that has failed so miserably in places like the Soviet Union and Cuba, and has hung on just barely in places like China only through fairly radical capitalistic reforms. The reasons wealth redestribution doesn't work are many, and aren't the point of this thread, although your mentions of laziness and bad decisions are two big reasons. Suffice it to say that Gandhi may have been a great man and a spiritual model for the world, but he was a lousy economist. "Economic equality" simply doesn't work. What *does* work is capitalism. Again, let me explain:

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-11-28T00:58:43-06:00

ID

69036

Comment

There is no question that the best big country in the world in which to be poor is America. Compare the standard of living of the bottom 10% of Americans to, say, the bottom 10% of Russians, Chinese, Indians, or Brazilians. There is simply no comparison. Most American poor own a car, have clothes, eat 3 meals a day, and have access to free health care. Their counterparts in other big countries can only dream of those things. It's true that there are better countries in which to be poor; the Scandinavian countries come to mind. But you'll find that in those kinds of places, you have a small and unusually heterogeneous population, and that's hardly the same thing as the nudreds of millions here or in Russia, or the billions in Chian and India. The second thing you're saying sounds strangely like a justification for committing "money" crimes if you happpen to be poor. I don't buy that at all, I don't think you do either if you stopped to think about it. Poverty does not cause crime. If it did, Gandhi and Mother Theresa would have been spent their lives stealing, not living as examples to the world. What causes young black men to commit the kind of petty property crime we're talking about is a combination of envy and laziness: They want what they don't have, but don't want to wait to come by it the honest - and hard-working - way. The truth is that *most* young black men don't commit crimes. But as a group, they're off the charts when compared to other race, age and sex demographics. If you stay inside the black community, but move out of the young male demographic and into women and those over 40, crime rates drop drastically. Same thing happens when you move out of the black demographics and into the whites.

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-11-28T00:58:55-06:00

ID

69037

Comment

There is a huge difference between inequality and injustice. Those who believe they are one and the same are doomed to continue buying into failed ideologies like Marxism, communism, and socialism. There is nothing unjust about inequality. It is, however, unjust to *engineer* inequality, to create it where it isn't there, to amplify it artifically, to cultivate it deliberately. Inequality certainly exists in America. So does injustice. And there is plenty of inequality that is unjust. But you'll be hard pressed to find a country that has gone to greater lengths - and had more success - to eliminate *unjust* inequality than America. But that's key to understanding why America deserves credit for its efforts to level the playing field in academia, in the workplace, and in the rest of society, *despite the fact* that profound inequality still exists here: Because inequality and injustice are not the same thing. What some people see as injustice is simply the inequality that comes with the natural state of man. ANYhoo... That's not why we're here. We're here because Donna Ladd pops off that the Northside Sun's practice of noting the race of criminals is neanderthal, or racist, or whatever... soooo "not 2003." Then I asked, as I often do here, a very simple question: Why is that the same people who tend be fetishistic about noting race when it comes to their successes, or when they would have us believe they're getting short shrift on something, get in such an uproar when race is noted in an unflattering light? We now return you to the sound of one foot tapping...

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-11-28T00:59:07-06:00

ID

69038

Comment

Re: the Sandinavian countries... I obviously meant "homogeneous." Sorry.

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-11-28T01:06:40-06:00

ID

69039

Comment

Greg, I understand and respect each of your points. However, I disagree with one of your points alot more than any other one you made. Economic equality is not to say that everyone have the same amount of finances. But at least everyone is given a fair chance to achieve economic equality. I beg to differ that the United States is doing enough to change this. Sure they are trying but the answer is more simple than it seems. For instance; look at job applications they all say EOE (equal opportunity employer). Yet, when you look around you see predominantly people who all look like and that is not because people of color were not qualified and did not fill out the application. It is because of the same thing that exist in college and pro football. There is no excuse for that and it is very sad to say the least. Read on...

Author

Fry

Date

2003-11-28T02:23:22-06:00

ID

69040

Comment

Greg, Also understand this. In college me and this other guy started doing an internship at the same time. Our grades were equal and everything. Yet, when I was there I was sending papers thru the shredder and he was following the doctors around. Now, why is that? That is what I mean by given me the chance to reach economic equality by simply allowing me to play by the same rules. Earlier in the year a report was issued detailing (how people who had unique names) applications were instantly discarded to the trash. In other words basically people of color with extravagant names were not given the same opportunity and time because of their name. That is another example of economic equality. Ghandi was smart in economics because he understood if people saw a game that the rules were fair and equal then it would key a society that was predominantly non-violent. For instance....

Author

Fry

Date

2003-11-28T02:30:29-06:00

ID

69041

Comment

Greg, Why would a person rob or carjack if that person had the same thing or at least the same opportunity to get the same thing. Envy, jealousy, and greed are in this case caused by the lust for money. I am not trying to convince you that it is right and I am not supporting it, but what I am doing is at least offering you reasoning behind why the crimes are committed. Economic equality is the key. Just look at it like this. Most people love to play sports because they like to compete. In sports the rules are fair and both sides start out with zero and then begin to work towards gaining more than the other until the game ends. Often, at the end of the game both sides are content because they tried their best. Now in our society that is not the case. Both sides did not start out with zero. One side got a financial head start and the other side is steal trying to play catch up. Also, the rules are not clear or fair. Thus, how can you expect the other side to play by the rules if they want to catch up especially if the chips are alreadty stacked against them? So instead of having faith and patience the other side cheats ONLY in attempt to catch up. Greg you are obviously smart, very smart. Think about this, just stop being you for a second. And do your best and think about what it is like being on the other side. Sure, you would work hard and try your very best without committing acts of violence but you will be tempted to finally win by any means necessary after a while. Not to say that you will fall to temptation but it will be placed before you. So far, each time that a white person has did the experiment to see what it is like being black from painting their skin or just getting a real dark tan they all have said the same thing. They were very surprised about what life was like from discrimination, profiling, and streotypying to just downright evil. Sure alot of it is warranted because most crimes according to statistics are committed by young black males. But then again that depends on what crimes we are referring to huh? We know that more blacks are found guilty of selling drugs and robbery but what about money laundering, embezzlement, and corporate and stock fraud? Like I said Greg, I think if you sat down with me like I asked in an attempt to learn and observe more your views will alter somewhat.

Author

Fry

Date

2003-11-28T02:51:05-06:00

ID

69042

Comment

Fry, I doubt spending more time among the people we're talking about would change my mind. My ideas about what's right and wrong are not based on how much money one makes, or even how deprived one has been throughout one's life. Just because you've lived without money your whole life, or because you've been deprived an equal opportunity to make it, doesn't make it any less wrong to rob and steal, any more than being sexually abused as a child makes it any less wrong to molest children once you're an adult. It's not say that being abused or being discriminated against isn't wrong, but they simply can't be transformed into excuses for illegal or immoral behavior later in life. With all due respect, this idea that those who are committing these crimes deserve some special consideration because of their disadvantaged backgrounds is nonsense. Advocating it simply a way - whether you mean to or not - of passing the blame, and until those in the black community who wish to do something about crime committed by blacks - and the white community with crimes committed by white, as far as that goes - decide to place the blame squarely and fully with those who commit the crimes, without one squeak or squawk about "society," or whitey, or anything else, they're not going to solve a thing. It would be the same as if AA told its members that the reason they're alcoholics is because the man is keeping them down. [more]...

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-11-28T15:23:18-06:00

ID

69043

Comment

... The notion that people of modest means should naturally want more is neither true, nor a mitigating factor should they decide to get more for themselves by illegal means. There are vast numbers of people who deliberately live quite modestly, and don't spend their time wanting more, and committing crimes to get more. There's nothing with wanting more, but it doesn't follow that if one wants more, but finds it more difficult than the next guy to get it, that it's okay to steal it, or that somehow you deserve special consideration when it comes time to lay the blame for your actions. If what we were talking about was stealing in order to provide for your family, or to provide for yourself your next meal, that would be one thing. But what we're talking about, let's face it, is bling-bling and crack. Not exactly the bare minimum needed for survival. Your experience at the hospital, if indeed it was due simply to the color of your skin, is unfortunate, and you were indeed wronged. That is an example of engineered injustice I described earlier, and it shouldn't happen. However, it's not an excuse to take what's not yours. For example, it's not an excuse to leave the hospital, rob somebody, and pawn their stuff for money. It's a simple matter of two wrongs not making a right.

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-11-28T15:23:31-06:00

ID

69044

Comment

The words "economic equality" sound eerily like communism. Fry, could you explain how your "economic equality" differs from the Marxist/Lenin version and/or the simplified, utopian version? Further, I thought our existing, albiet in need of minor repair, welfare system attempted to keep everyone on a level playing field? How does your theory of "economic equality" differ from the existing welfare system? Just curious and not attempting to put any words in your mouth... :)

Author

Knol Aust

Date

2003-11-28T18:18:34-06:00

ID

69045

Comment

Knol, Was my response written in an unknown script or was it written in English? Nothing about what I said sounds like communism. Economic equality means just that. An opportunity to be equal when it comes to economics, finances, or money or whatever you call it. Welfare and economic equality is not the same. I am not referring to hand me downs, but I am referring to fairness and equality. WHY DO MOST NON MINORITY PEOPLE ACT AS IF THEY DO NOT KNOW WHAT EQUALITY IS? Only if the shoe was on the other foot, then and only then would people really understand. Economic equality simply means give me the same rules and chances that others' are getting. Ok, Knol let's debate economic equality further. Let's talk about how only 4 out of 114 college football programs decided to allow economic equality to take place and in professional football only 3 out of 30. Now why is there only 7 out of 144 teams that have people of color coaching their teams? The opportunity to make equal money lies within gaining employment instead of simply filling out an application or going to an interview. Economic equality means if I am equal why not give me the same chance to sign the big money contracts like over 130 other coaches have done?

Author

Fry

Date

2003-11-29T00:50:04-06:00

ID

69046

Comment

Knol, how can welfare make things a fair playing field. Welfare needs to be altered too. It is shameful that people who do not even try receive money. Yet, not all of the people on welfare are lazy, some of them actually cannot get over the hump and I feel for them. But anyway, that is a sad response to say welfare is leveling the playing field. Knol, the next time you think about or see anyone or any group of people in positions of power ask yourself is that group diverse? If not, why isn't it? It is not because minorities are not as qualified or more qualified. So why is that? Once again, Economic equality simply means give me the same chance that you give everyone else. Do not tell me that you gave me a chance to fill out an application or a chance to come to an interview. What matters is that you gave me a chance to see my name on a check. So what you let me fill out an application like everyone else. Look around the company and see is that group of employees diverse? If not why not? I know more than this one race of people applied for jobs here. Economic equality means give me a chance to sit on the supreme court, to be president of this country, to be a head coach of a college or pro football team. Hire me damn it and let me take my check to the bank just like the other people then we will have economic equality. The End...

Author

Fry

Date

2003-11-29T01:00:35-06:00

ID

69047

Comment

Greg, Once again. I am not giving excuses to say anyone has the right to commit crimes. What I am saying is if we want these crimes to cease or reduce we have to be honest about the situation. Yes, we in the black community are very concerned about why so many young men are choosing the life of crime. Yet, we are also concerned about why so many of our young people cannot get the same opportunity that others' are receiving. For instance, most of our black teenagers are stuck at a fast food or grocery store making minimum wage whereas another group of teenagers are working in the mall, retail shops, spas and etc; making more than minimum wage. This is another example of what I mean by economic equality. Greg, just the chance to be equal when it it comes to money and economics is all that I asking for. When and if that happens I can assure you that things will change. I have more to say and will say but I have a 2 year old that I have to check on....

Author

Fry

Date

2003-11-29T01:06:43-06:00

ID

69048

Comment

I only pause my vacation to make two quick comments on this thread. First: Greg wrote: "As usual you're side-stepping the whole issue, this time by begging the question. It's PRECISELY these "best practices" that I'm questioning. Explain how it's 'best' that newspapers remove all references to race in crime stories. How is that an improvement over including them?" As usual, Greg, you are demonstrating an inability to read and understand what other people say. I did NOT say that newspapers should remove "all references to race" in crime stories. What I, and folks a whole buncher smarter than I, have said is that reporting race just to be including it (and, seemingly, to try to show how awful and criminal blacks are), but of course without context, is indeed neanderthal. From the comments I hear in Jackson about the Northside Sun's crime coverage, about half of them (and not just the black ones) think the same thing. Now, I absolutely think that crime, education and various other things you mentioned and didn't mention should be aggregated by race, or we're never going to know where to focus the efforts to prevent/change/help society. I also have no problem including race along with other identifying factors -- as the Best Practices guides point out -- in any crime story. Your excuses for the Sun are not convincing at all. You're right that crime in black communities, and others, need to be aggregated, understood and placed in a wider context. But this seldom happens, and certainly not in the Northside Sun. I was thinking about your post from the other night as I was traveling. It does puzzle me when you'd argue so passionately for knowing just how much crime is committed in black communities, even as you seem to have no real reason for wanting to know that -- except to show that blacks commit more crimes. OK, if that's the case (and it's not really, at least in the simplistic ways you argue, but we'll get to that later, post-vacation), what then? Why are you trying to prove it? It seems very obvious to me that if that is the case, then the next step is to ask why? And why needs to be done about it?

Author

ladd

Date

2003-11-29T11:32:38-06:00

ID

69049

Comment

Clearly, unless you adhere to scientific racism (caution: the "superpredator"/"wild animal/tiger" myth has been debunked by the man who came up with it; be sure you Google that far), that means there are factors that affect the black community that is causing more of certain types of crimes to happen there. It would be illogical to argue that the "reason" crime is higher for blacks is because not enough are going to jail; hard data show that blacks are much disproporationatly imprisoned and executed for the same types of crimes. If that is all it took, crime, should be virtually alleviated in the black community. So that can't be it. So, my head reasons, if you want to know how many blacks commit what kinds of crimes, great. I agree with you. Then if you want to figure out why so that can be changed,I agree with you. If you want to print descriptions of only certain crimes that show only race so that you can run around and say, "See, I told you more blacks commit crimes," and thus make racists feel better about themselves, I would call you a Neanderthal.

Author

ladd

Date

2003-11-29T11:32:59-06:00

ID

69050

Comment

The other point ... Greg wrote: "First, 'economic equality' is, pure and simple, a noble-sounding term for communism, and as such, simply doesn't work. Let me explain:" Greg, your willingness to take what someone else wrote (this time, Fry) and turn it into something that you can froth at the mouth over never ceases to amaze me. This is so not a logical deduction of what Brian said. He is not talking about "communism"; somebody, cue the 1959 soundtrack; here come the communist-hunters.

Author

ladd

Date

2003-11-29T11:37:18-06:00

ID

69051

Comment

Fry said: Economic equality simply means give me the same rules and chances that others' are getting. Knol: <> I've heard nearly everyone complain this complaint. From whites to blacks to straights to gays to rich to poor... It's a tired argument of haves and have nots. The grass is always greener. "Hire me damn it and let me take my check to the bank just like the other people then we will have economic equality." Are you qualified? Are you more qualified than A.B. Smith? Can you prove it? Do you have the experience? No? Hell, no, I'm not giving you a job! A.B. Smith is waaaaaayyyy more qualified and can prove it. Yes? I can see that on your resume. You look very skilled and have experience to boot. Come on in... Sit at this desk. You wouldn't believe my previous applicant that thought I should just "give" him this job. I don't understand your point. You want someone to hand you a job? I see. That's not communism -- it's socialism and is a mid-level of communism before the tyranical beast of communism is fully realized. I don't want that and few Ameican's do (rich or poor). Your "economic equality" does not jive with the capitalist nature of our democracy... No one's going to hand you a job. If they do, I will guarantee there will be yet another line of complainers with your same complaints. Hell, I'll be one of them because I've never had a job handed to me due to someone's socialist beliefs. I do know some that were turned away due to affirmative action.... !#@$# economic equality and fight for your own bit of capitalist pie. Hurry before the pigs eat it themselves! No one owes anyone anything. We are a free society without the predestiny so many people feel because of their own insecurities or weary pasts. Can't get a job? Start your own damned business. Hell, minorities have groups waiting to hand over money for small businesses. Why take handouts from the "man"? After all, if immigrants of all races can come here with nothing and start up small businesses that thrive, certainly we as established citizens can as well. The "man" only exists in our heads (for now). I'm not buying into your theory of economic equality at this point. I prefer capitalism and free-enterprise any day to socialist concepts.

Author

Knol Aust

Date

2003-11-29T12:09:19-06:00

ID

69052

Comment

Donna, I actually read Brian's theories as communist/socialist in nature. So, there may be more there that needs to be explained.

Author

Knol Aust

Date

2003-11-29T12:13:14-06:00

ID

69053

Comment

Brian said: "WHY DO MOST NON MINORITY PEOPLE ACT AS IF THEY DO NOT KNOW WHAT EQUALITY IS? Only if the shoe was on the other foot, then and only then would people really understand." This won't work with me... Until a recent Supreme Court decision, it was legal to knock down my door and arrest me for being with my partner of five(+) years. I know of whites that have been fired for being "gay" and it was legitimized by a lack of equal protections. So, what did we do? We created our own communities, neighborhoods and support systems. We forged ahead as a group/minority to validate our presence and acquire our position. We certainly did not sit around expecting hand outs or free jobs. ...And we are doing quite a fabulous job of defining our presence without those hand outs. We use the legal system and the capitalist nature of our country to profit off "business relationships" which are more equitable than marriage. We support businesses that support us... We hire lawyers to ensure we have equal rights in hospitals when a partner is ill or dying. We also use the legal system to make sure our Wills are enforced. See, we got tired of expecting hand outs and started fighting using the system to our advantage. That's the beauty of America. Further, many gay men and women are forced from their homes at early ages and subjected to public, familial and social ridicule (read: ostracized). Often they are subjected to an urban world just as ugly or uglier than many minorities that can present negative situations such as disease, prostitution/hustling, drugs, and murder. So, I will conclude based on my own life experience that I do know how a "non minority" feels based on the fear I experience when placed in many situations. Further, until the white or gay population exceeds 50% in Jackson, I will always be a minority unless I choose to move.

Author

Knol Aust

Date

2003-11-29T13:34:32-06:00

ID

69054

Comment

If you'll read Brian's first comments, I think it's fair to say that what he seemed to be advocating was something along the lines of wealth redistribution, which is indeed basically communism. BUT - reading his subsequent comments, in which he expanded on what he was talking about, it's clearer that he means equal opportunity, and that's far from the same thing. And, as I wrote in my follow-ups, engineered inequality = injustice, and presumably no reasonable people oppose eliminating injustice. It's true that many - perhaps all - minorities suffer from racism, in everything from the service they get at stores to the opportunities they get at colleges and companies. It's also true that the legacy of slavery and Jim Crow is shameful and hurtful. Arguing about whether minorities - in this case, blacks - should be getting a fair shake is ridiculous. If you don't believe they should, then you're not a reasonable person, and thus you don't deserve to be part of any such debate. The only questions here are: Are blacks getting a fair shake? If not, what can be done to ensure that they do? But before anybody spends too much time worrying about whether blacks are getting a fair shake,they should stop and ask themselves two simple questions: 1. How bad, really, is the situation? 2. Absent engineered inequality, can blacks provide enough qualified people to fill the slots made available?

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-11-29T16:59:03-06:00

ID

69055

Comment

What I mean by the first question is: 3 out of 30 professional football head coaches is not evidence of a problem. If anything, it's evidence that there *is no* problem. 3 of 30 is 10%; blacks in America constitute only 12.5% of the population. Add one more black head coach, and blacks will be over-represented by almost one percentage point. The question isn't, Where are all the black head coaches? The question is, Where are all the Hispanic and Asian head coaches? For that matter, looks at college and professional football, basketball, and to a lesser extent baseball: They're dominated by blacks, out of all proportion to their percentage of the population. And look at the Billboard chart a few weeks ago. For the first time ever, all of the top 10 spot were held by black artists. Have you checked the TV listings lately? I haven't done a scientific study, but from flipping through channels, it sure seems to me that blacks make up a good bit more than 12.5% of the main or major characters in TV sitcoms and dramas. The college football head coach stat is obviously glaring, but that's my point: Out of 2 examples offered, upon closer inspection only one is really evidence of a problem. and there are plenty of things - not just atheletics - where blacks aren't just fairly represented, but dominate. So perhaps things really aren't as bad as some people would have us believe. This leads to the second question. What I mean by it is: Is it possible that the lack of blacks in certain positions is not because they're being kept out of them, but because there simply aren't enough qualified blacks to fill them?

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-11-29T16:59:11-06:00

ID

69056

Comment

I'll be the first to recognize the Catch-22 there: That blacks can't be expected to be qualified for positions at the same rate whites are, when the education and opportunities required to be qualified are denied to them in the first place. But it could very well be that at the career level, there is actually very little in the way of discrimination, but the pipeline is dry from years of discrimination in college and entry-level positions. It could also be that in areas like accounting, dentistry, and countless other white-bread fields, the reason blacks aren't making the statistical inroads some would like to see is because, let's face it, there's a strong aversion in the black community to acting white, and beside the word "cracker" in the dictionary, there's a picture of a CPA and a periodontist. Bottom line: The more the black community really and truly looks *first* to solve the problems of its own, and only then asks whether the problem lies with racism, the less that accusations of racism will sound like white noise to white people.

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-11-29T16:59:20-06:00

ID

69057

Comment

Knol/Ladd, Yes, Donna, I did read Brian's comments as advocating wealth redistribution. And Knol, you did the same a few comments later. Check my most recent posts, but Donna - cut the histrionics and re-read Brian's first post. He may not have *meant* to evoke wealth redistribution, but any reasonable reading of his first post leads to that conclusion. And roll your eyes if you wish, but wealth redistribution is the foundation of communism.

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-11-29T17:09:03-06:00

ID

69058

Comment

Greg and Knol, I am very confused by your decision to refer to my views and wealth distribution and communism. How can you reach either one of those conclusions by the statement economic equality. Economic equality is not: 1. desiring anyone to just give me a job or handouts. 2. wealth distribution However it is fairness and equality meaning jsut give me the same chance and improving my financial situation the same way you give others'. And KNOL, I will get back to you in aminute I have to analyze something I just read from Greg.

Author

Fry

Date

2003-11-29T20:44:40-06:00

ID

69059

Comment

Greg, you said that African Americans make up 12.5 percent of this country and 3 out of 30 is very reflective of that general breakdown. Though your facts are correct they are not relevant in this case at all. The NFL and College Football has around 65-70 percent minority players. Yet only a total of 7 coaches out of 144 are minority. Now, please be honest and share with me how that makes sense and please do not tell me about being qualified. Next, sure there are plenty of qualified black coaches to fill the positions. If we look at whose really qualified and who is not I am sure you will see several non-blacks are not even close to being qualified. So why do blacks always have to have such great qualifications when non-blacks gets jobs because they know the right person or the right person knows them. Just look at the Alabama situation. What Made Schula so qualified? Didn't he get fired from one of his previous jobs and his last job was quarterback coach with the Miami Dolphins and we know that they have not had a decent QB since Marino. Then you have the other candidate who had over 20 years in the NFL where he has produced several 1,000 yard running backs year in and year out. So, the question is not are there enough qualified black candidates, the question is how come qualified candidates are being passed over for less qualified ones who just happen not to be black. If you want more examples just ask for them because I have plenty. Notice this is not communist or wealth distribution but is factual and pointing out how equality does not exist when it comes to administration positions and this is not just in sports it is everywhere. No one is asking for anything to be given to them but we are asking if I am qualified or more qualified why are you hiring people are less qualified than me?

Author

Fry

Date

2003-11-29T20:58:42-06:00

ID

69060

Comment

Then, just because you went to graduate school does not mean you are more qualified than someone who did not. For example, an article in the newspaper said the Director of a local Adolescent Offender Program said she had no idea that the drug problem among young people was so widespread. Now how in the hell did she get that job if she did not know that? That is basic information that anyone who works with kids know. So what if she probably Dr. So and So, but she did not know something that was basic. Thus, if she did not know the most basic information what makes her so qualified. To me that shows she is not qualified. To lead that type of group you have to be in touch with reality and know what is going on with the kids you are trying to help. And she is way out of touch. I just cannot understand how you and KNOL say that my points are communist or how I am asking for wealth distribution. No where did I say the rich should give to the poor to balance out things. If I did point it out. But what I did and will say is each person regardless of skin color should have the same opportunity when it comes to economics instead of them being discriminated against or passed over for the color of their skin. In other words just give the same (fair) chance to work for that company as the next person. I am not asking you to give me anything except a FAIR chance at jobs instead of hiring someone who is not as qualified as myself. Instead of being an equal opportunity employer be an equal hiring employer. Hire those are qualified on a equal basis and that my friend is Economic Equality. Economic equality is just the chance to be equal at gaining finances, money, and wealth meaning just hire the best person regardless of what color they are or what their name is. Remember a report was issued about 2 months ago saying how some people were not considered for certain jobs because they had unique names. That is denying them the right to achieve economic improvement. Let me guess, you disagree with that too huh?

Author

Fry

Date

2003-11-29T21:15:03-06:00

ID

69061

Comment

Fry, You'll get no argument from me about Alabama. I think they're a bunch of racist cracker pigs who would, if they could, build a time machine that would let them go back to the 17th century and make sure that African slaves never made it to America, so Bear Bryant wouldn't have to suffer the indiginity of having his beloved game taken over by nigras, and who, if they could, would take that same time machine back to the early 80's, cut off Bear's head, and preserve it in formaldehyde in the hopes that one day medical science could cure what killed the old coot, and bring him back to life so he could stalk the sidelines, muttering curses at Reggie Collier and Brett Favre and Eli Manning. But about this new rule you've introduced, where head coaches have to constitute the same percentage as players? This is not a road you want to go down, because you can't sustain the reasoning behind it without finding yourself in some pretty tight predicaments. For example, if blacks should constitute 12.5% of every profession, even those for which they're not qualified (and trust me, there are professions where blacks can't provide 12.5% of the qualified applicants), then why shouldn't whites get to constitute their fare share of all football and basketball teams? Seems only fair, right? Let's do some quick math. In football, one side of the ball is pretty much the same as the other, racially speaking, with defenses being a little more black than offenses. But let's take the offense as an exmaple anyway. Typically, here's what you'll find: - 1 QB (white) - 2 RB (black) - 2 WR (black) - 1 TE (white) - 5 linemen (3 white, 2 black) That's 7 black guys, 4 white guys. So by extension, let's say the racial makeup of the NFL is about 63% black, 37% white. Blacks are over-represented by 50 percentage points. FIFTY POINTS! I think the NFL allows about 80 players on each team's roster. With 30 teams, that's 2,400 total players, of whom about 1,500 are black. So I'll tell you what: We'll add one more black head coach, and bring the black coaching representation up to (actually past) that magic 12.5%. But only if we can fire about 750 black players, and replace them with white guys. Is that fair?

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-11-30T00:05:48-06:00

ID

69062

Comment

"I just cannot understand how you and KNOL say that my points are communist or how I am asking for wealth distribution." What you said was: "All of those crimes are commited in an attempt to get money or something of significant monetary value. The great philosopher Mohatma Ghandi said "Economic Equality is the master key to nonviolent independence". I ask you Greg (be honest and ask yourself) in this country do we have Economic Equality? The answer is NOOOO we do not." And then you went on to another point. I certainly know, and I would guess that Knol does too, that Gandhi was, economically, basically a socialist. Now I'll admit that I don't know exactly what he meant by the term "economic equality," but absent any further explanation, it's reasonable for someone to assume that you meant "wealth redistribution." The fact that Knol read the same thing into your comments (it appears he didn't read my post before commenting) says more about your not explaining your position carefully than it does about our not reading your post carefully. But as I've already mentioned, you subsequently expanded on what you meant: Equality in opportunity, not incomes or wealth. And I said I agreed completely, and dropped the issue of wealth redistribution. "Economic equality is just the chance to be equal at gaining finances, money, and wealth meaning just hire the best person regardless of what color they are or what their name is." ...and as I said, I agree completely.

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-11-30T00:15:19-06:00

ID

69063

Comment

BTW, there are 32 teams in the NFL. I've just never been able to fully accept Jacksonville and Charlotte. I'm still getting used to Seattle and Tampa.

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-11-30T00:19:09-06:00

ID

69064

Comment

BTW, part 2: That turns an even 10% into 9.4%. But conveniently, adding one more coach would make it a perfect 12.5%.

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-11-30T00:20:43-06:00

ID

69065

Comment

Greg, it's touching that *you* would accuse me of histrionics. ;-) However, in my absense you seem to have to figured out that Brian clearly wasn't talking about bad-ole "communism" (which isn't the same as socialism, Knol). That was clear to me from his first statement quoting Gandhi, but it was immistakable from his context directly following. But it seems reading the context clarified this for you, so need to argue it further. I will add, though, that the need for *context*, media and otherwise, is what started this thread in the first place. Imagine how improved the dialogue in the country would be if, rather than kneejerking that apparently someone "clearly meant" some extreme idea when they tried to communicate, that others simply ask him/her for more information. I'm glad to see that that is happening to some level with this thread. And now that y'all boys (grin) have gotten into NFL analogies, I'll leave you to solve the problems of the world. I do have some more comments on Knol's posts -- about how the current reality of the American dream and "free enterprise" (both of which I believe in wholeheartedly) isn't what it's meant to be; and access to it is vital -- but I'll hold that for later on. I'm being summonsed for brunch. Cheers, all.

Author

ladd

Date

2003-11-30T11:27:51-06:00

ID

69066

Comment

I should have said: ... so NO need to argue it further ....

Author

ladd

Date

2003-11-30T11:29:09-06:00

ID

69067

Comment

Ok, Greg, I think we understand each other. Thanks for the great debate and exchnage of ideas. I am looking forward to our next one. That was fun and informative.

Author

Fry

Date

2003-11-30T12:42:24-06:00

ID

69068

Comment

Greg, Wait a minute, you continue to use the census report to base your argument and that is not relevant at all. Understand that each professional sport is its own enterprise and they govern themselves. Thus they are seperate from most other businesses. Now, let's go over the facts once more. College and pro football are about 65-70 percent black but only 7 coaches out of 144 are black. I have a question for you and be honest. In this country about 75-80 percent of soccer players are white. Now, what if there were 144 teams and only 7 of them had white coaches. Don't u think someone will point that out and say something is wrong??? I know I would. And be honest about this Greg....

Author

Fry

Date

2003-11-30T22:34:28-06:00

ID

69069

Comment

Fry, Hold on - I just need to get something straight. You're saying that it's okay for the racial makeup of sports teams' rosters not to conform to the racial makeup of society at large?

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-12-01T02:22:00-06:00

ID

69070

Comment

Exactly, Greg. You've heard of such a thing. It's called "merit." You know, the best players, period.

Author

Nia

Date

2003-12-01T09:12:58-06:00

ID

69071

Comment

Also, can I just say that's there's a huge gap between where the U.S. is today and 'communism', in terms of economic inequalities. I'm in the midst of Kevin Phillips' "Wealth and Democracy". It's filled with fascinating info, like: Percent change in after tax income, 1977 - 1994. The top 1% gained 72%, the top 96-99% gained 25%. The lowest 20% lost 16%, the next lowest 20% lost 8 %. The rich are getting richer. The top 20% in America earn 11x more than the bottom 20%. Compared to 9.6x in the UK, 7.1x in France, etc, down to 4.3x in Japan. And so forth, and so on. It's a fascinating view of American history, and gets into why and how the rich have historically worked with government to protect their holdings. The era from the 1980s until the turn of the century has seen the largest and most rapid gains by the top 10%, and the gains are even more pronounced for the top 5% and top 1%. In fact (and I did not know this), the 'average' american has actually seen his/her income go down in real dollars in the 1990s - during the 'economic bubble.' And, I loved the last paragraph in his preface: "Because my own background is Republican, and I now know much more of GOP history on these subjects, it is hard to avoid the conclusion that the Republican economic policies and biases of the 1990s and early 2000s are a narrow-guage betrayal of the legacy of the two greatest Republican presidents, Lincoln and Teddy Roosevelt. But that is a debate I will leave to the elections."

Author

Kate

Date

2003-12-01T10:22:10-06:00

ID

69072

Comment

Nia, So tell me. If sports teams shouldn't be forced to reflect the racial makeup of society, why should it be any different for any other company or organization? This I gotta hear.

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-12-01T12:36:10-06:00

ID

69073

Comment

The only people I know of, Greg, who argue that every aspect of our society should reflect the racial makeup of our society are right-wing Republicans. Are you saying they're wrong?

Author

Nia

Date

2003-12-01T12:58:44-06:00

ID

69074

Comment

And, while we're on the topic of 'economic equality', I've remembered another factoid. The Wall Street Journal a few months ago printed an article with the results of a study on race in hiring practices. It was chilling. They found that white men *with* a prison record were more likely to be called back for 2nd interviews than black men with the same qualifications, without a prison record. I think it was something on the order of 17% call backs for the white, prison goers, and 14% call backs for the blacks. The project basically forged resumes, identical for blacks and whites, and then studied the responses. Overall, race was the biggest determinate in how well the candidates were percieved. I don't have the other details, and I can't find the article. Donna, I did email it to you a while back - any chance your filing system is better than mine?

Author

Kate

Date

2003-12-01T13:12:54-06:00

ID

69075

Comment

Then there's that study from a few months ago that showed that applicants with typical African American names are twice as likely to have their resumes end up in the garbage can than applicants with typical white names and the same qualifications.

Author

Nia

Date

2003-12-01T13:32:38-06:00

ID

69076

Comment

Thanks so much Nia and Kate for pointing out facts that for some reason both Grag and Knol acted as if they did not fully understand. Economic equality matters and is very important....

Author

Fry

Date

2003-12-01T13:48:58-06:00

ID

69077

Comment

GREG, Yes certainly I am saying that the number of coaches should not represent the census facts. The census report is irrelevant in this case. Yet, the census report in that business (football in this case) says that 65-75 percent of the players are black but only only 7 out of the 144 coaches are black. That is disgraceful. Blacks are good enough to be players but not good enough to coach them. I asked you the question which you did not answer. If this was soccer which in this country consists of predominantly white players, would it be an injustice that 75 percent of the players are white but only 7 out of 144 of the coaches were white. Would that be fair and make any sense????? Answer the question Greg.

Author

Fry

Date

2003-12-01T14:00:25-06:00

ID

69078

Comment

Nia, That's funny. I never knew Jesse Jackson and Ted Kennedy were right-wing Republicans. Right-wingers don't say that at all. They say that employers should be allowed to hire whoever they please. It's the left who screams "racism" at every instance of perceived inequality, and wails about affirmative action every time they sense it's being threatened. Would you care to post the names of those *other* right-wingers you were perhaps referring to? Oh, hell, never mind... let me save you the trouble: Nia, You're just making things up now, and that's sad. You fell into the trap, plain and simple. You've shown yourself over numerous posts to be singularly incapable of grasping elementary logic, so let me lay it out for you as simply as I can: You cannot say on the one hand that the owners and coaches of football teams are free to hire people based on their opinions of who will do the best job, and when the rosters turn out to be majority black, it's simply because the best applicants got the job; and on the other hand, when PaineWebber or Goldman Sachs or the surgical staff at the Mayo Clinic are 90-something percent white, say that the under-representation of blacks must be due to racism. Athletes are hired partly on their ability to run a 40, or hit a fastball, or whatever. But ultimately, the decision is also based on many intangibles: Character, work ethic, off-the-field behavior, to name a few. Just ask Randy Moss. He had to play college ball at Marshall instead of a first-tier university, and got skipped over as the first-round draft pick, purely because of his negative intangibles. In other words, in both of those cases, the people doing the hiring just didn't like what they saw, and since they weren't forced to hire him strictly on his athletic ability, they passed. If blacks as a percentage of sports teams make up 5 times their percentage of the population as a whole, then let me suggest that there is something about blacks - physiological, cultural, whatever - that makes them better athletes than whites. They simply supply a larger and better stream of athletes to colleges and pros than do whites. In other words, if on the whole, blacks are just naturally better athletes, and that's not racism, then where's the racism in suggesting that whites provide a larger and better stream of surgeons and investment bankers?

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-12-01T14:01:00-06:00

ID

69079

Comment

Artful Dodger, oops, sorry, Greg: You fell into your own obvious trap. You posted that question to Brian because you were anticipating that he or someone else would raise the obvious issue of quotas. Then you figured you'd pose a paradoxical situation: "Quotas aren't ok in sports but are ok elsewhere?" Please. You left your trap out in the open with a note and a big arrow. You stepped into your own trap, adeptly showing your racist colors. Blacks are well represented in some sports because those sports are proven vehicles for the accumulation of wealth and status and because those athletes work their asses off--often from the time they are old enough to walk--in pursuit of sports stardom. Many of them surmise that because of the institutionalized racism in corproate America they're better off pursuing sports, particularly since that work will often be more fulfilling. There's no biological difference between the so-called races, Greg, not even at the DNA level. Greg said: "You cannot say on the one hand that the owners and coaches of football teams are free to hire people based on their opinions of who will do the best job, and when the rosters turn out to be majority black, it's simply because the best applicants got the job; and on the other hand, when PaineWebber or Goldman Sachs or the surgical staff at the Mayo Clinic are 90-something percent white, say that the under-representation of blacks must be due to racism." You're right, Greg, I can't say that. That's why I didn't say that. You're trying to push me into your own stupid trap by putting words in my mouth. See, Brian, I told you he wouldn't answer your question.

Author

Nia

Date

2003-12-01T14:32:13-06:00

ID

69080

Comment

Fry, Here's your answer. It's a variation on a theme from my previous post, so please read it first. Two things: 1. Being a good player does not necessarily make you a good coach. Proof: Rockey Felker. Isiah Thomas. I could go on for hours. So, yes, it may in fact be the case that on the whole, black athletes are good enough to play, but not good enough to coach. 2. This is most important: You can either, as you're saying, insulate a team, business, or organization from the racial makeup of society as a whole, or not. In other words, if you have to have a racial measuring stick, you can make it the body's internal racial makeup, or that of society as a whole. But once you internalize the measuring stick, you gut all meaning from the idea of racial quotas. 3. Furthermore, what's good for pro football is good for Goldman Sachs and the Mayo Clinic. Let me ask you this: Let's say that tomorrow you woke up and the number of black head coaches in the NFL was 65%. Let's then say that, for example, we started seeing a surge of white wide receivers. If the trend continued and the percentage of black players in the NFL as a whole drops, would you support firing black coaches, and hiring white coaches, in order to bring the racial balance in line? Similarly, if we audited Goldman Sachs and found out that 5% of its employees were black, but 15% of its executives were black, would you favor firing two-thirds of the black executives in order to bring the racial balance in line? Somehow I doubt it.

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-12-01T14:41:24-06:00

ID

69081

Comment

Nia, It's well-established that there are physiological differences between races, and even *within* races.That's why Eastern European whites dominate events like weight-lifting, which favors short, thick legs and long torsos. That's why East Africans, with an abundance of long-twitch muscles, dominate long-distance running, while West Africans, with an abundance of short-twitch muscles, dominate sprinting. Your point that blacks aspire to be athletes, and work so hard at it, is exactly the point I made when I said that perhaps "there is something about blacks - physiological, cultural, whatever - that makes them better athletes than whites."

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-12-01T14:52:38-06:00

ID

69082

Comment

Greg, you're posing non-issues as if they're some kind of paradox. Get a clue. No one here has said that they favor quotas. So why don't you stop pretending that that's what people are saying. Stop making shit up. What Brian IS saying is that there are many qualified, more than qualified black coaches who are denied the opportunity to coach because of institutionalized racism. Re Greg's point 2: What is this either/or craziness? Your statement doesn't even make sense. "Insulate a team, business, or organization from the racial makeup of society as a whole, or not." Hunh? That smacks of control, Greg, trying to keep non-whites in their "place." Here's an either or for you, Greg: You can either eliminate racism--institutional and otherwise--or spend the rest of eternity trying to make up for its ill effects, including educating people like you who make excuses for it.

Author

Nia

Date

2003-12-01T15:02:04-06:00

ID

69083

Comment

Greg, all of that was well said. yet, for the third time you chose not to answer my fairness question on soccer. But I guess your ignoring the question is an answer in itself. I have no problems admitting anyone is better at something than another. But I believe we should be fair in our evaluation process instead of saying this group is better in this or that. We should say hey let's look at all the candidates and say hey this is the best person regardless of factors like race, gender, or religion. I should not say hey that white guy is better at soccer than the black guy and I should not say that black guy is a better banker than that white guy. I should evaluate both people and make the best call at the end of my evaluation. In essence things should be fair and equal.

Author

Fry

Date

2003-12-01T15:06:51-06:00

ID

69084

Comment

Fry, I'll answer your question about soccer, but right now I gotta roll, and my answer has to do with the issue of fairness in a larger context. I enjoy debating you and I respect your opinions. Pleae check back in a few hours.

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-12-01T15:19:49-06:00

ID

69085

Comment

Obviously there are physiological differences between all people, hence my tendancy not to sunburn, unlike that of many people who may or may not have darker skin than me. But that's about DNA-determined amounts of melanin in my skin, not about race or nationality. Indian people are Caucasians, but many of them have dark skin. Because of this, historically, white-skinned Caucasians prefer to classify them as a separate "race." And in the gene melting pot that is America today, no one can sensibly claim to be genetically anything. I only have one African American grandparent, but I'm considered African American. Race is an artificial construct and has little to do with DNA. That was my point. And if you really believe that fairness is the issue, you wouldn't be trying to squirm out of answering Brian's question.

Author

Nia

Date

2003-12-01T15:53:43-06:00

ID

69086

Comment

Nia and Kate, Please stay strong and continue pointing out facts and highlighting the truth. I do not care if one is a democrat or republican. All I care about is the TRUTH!!!!!!!!!!!

Author

Fry

Date

2003-12-01T17:39:13-06:00

ID

69087

Comment

While I'm a-ruminatin', has anybody been to the new Indian place on I-55, Delhi Palace? What's the word?

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-12-01T19:06:32-06:00

ID

69088

Comment

Greg, GREG GREG I am still waiting on you to answer my question that you said you would answer.

Author

Fry

Date

2003-12-01T19:45:12-06:00

ID

69089

Comment

Fry, FRY FRY... JHC, dude - I said I was going to be a few hours. Here:

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-12-01T22:43:25-06:00

ID

69090

Comment

Fry, OK - to nominally answer your question, "In this country about 75-80 percent of soccer players are white. Now, what if there were 144 teams and only 7 of them had white coaches. Don't u think someone will point that out and say something is wrong???" Let me first say that if I had my way, I'd ban soccer completely, except maybe in Ireland and Scotland, where if they don't have something to get drunk and fight about once a week, the whole place would blow up in a fiery ball inside of a month. That said, let's pretend that I'd actually be capable of taking an interest in soccer, rather than have my nuts cut off with pinking shears and fed to me on a stick. If there were an imbalance between the number of white soccer players and the number of white head coaches, of course I'd think something was odd, and I'd wonder why things were like that. I would then hope that I could, as I recommended earlier re the black community and its criminals, look at all the reasons that might explain it, BEFORE charging racism. So: Yes, I would think something was odd. No, my first thing to do would NOT be to charge racism. However, if I could satisfy myself that there were enough qualified whites applying for those jobs, and that they were being passed over for inferior black candidates, then I would damn sure charge racism. But not before ruling ou things like: Are there enough qualified wihte candidates? Are they actually applying? And, are they indeed *more* qualified than the candidates who are getting hired before them? Only then would I voice any charge of racism. But back to the black football HC issue and fairness, I'm saying this: First of all, I'm not trying to assert that racism has never been a part of college football, or that it doesn't continue to infect it today. Racism has been a part of college football for decades. About that there is no dispute.

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-12-01T22:43:43-06:00

ID

69091

Comment

Now: Big-time sports (pros and the top, say, 50 college athletic programs) is about money. To give you an example: USM beat TCU last week to knock them out of the BCS bowl picture. Had TCU gone to a BCS bowl, the payout would have been between $12 million & $14 million. USM, by beating TCU and now East Carolina, wins Conference USA outright and goes to the Liberty Bowl, which pays $1.3 million. So if you combine what USM's victory cost TCU (about $11 million, conservatively), and what it gained for USM ($1.3 million, since going to a bowl wasn't assured without a win over TCU), it's a net of at least $12.3 million. The point: Even in Hattiesburg, college football is a game of big money, so imagine what it's like for those teams who are perennially ranked in the top 10. So, you don't win, you don't make money. I contend that in most places, winning - making money - is far more important than having a white head coach. In other words, if it comes down to losing with a white head coach *or* winning with a black coach, most places are going to choose the latter. Now, there are certainly places where the athletic directors are under pressure to hire white coaches *no matter what*. Oxford and Tuscaloosa immediately come to mind. You can see a little racism in action with the current MSU/Croom thing, alhtough I give State the benefit of the doubt, and think they would welcome a good no coach no matter what the color of his skin. But they are, presumably, a small minority (heh). But there are so many other places where it's a stretch to say that race figures that heavily into things. For example, do we really believe that Ann Arbor, Happy Valley, and Columbus have the same problems with black HC's as Oxford and Tuscaloosa? I find that hard to believe. Same with USC, UCLA, Oregon, Washington, Pitt, Miami, and on and on and on.

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-12-01T22:43:55-06:00

ID

69092

Comment

There are two questions you need to answer before you can make a charge of racism: - Are 12.5% of the nation's HC candidates black? If not, then it's going to be tough to justify a charge of racism. As our resident rocket scientist Nia says, blacks may have focused their efforts more on becoming players as opposed to coaches, because the potential rewards are greater, because they despaired of trying to break into the closed ranks of coaching, some combination of the two, or even different reasons altogether. - Does the "quality profile" of those black candidates roughly mirror that of the white candidates? By that I mean, if you ranked each candidate - black and white - objectively on a scale of 1-10 in terms of quality, and made 2 bar charts out of the data, one for whites and one for blacks, would the charts look about the same? Because if, as a percentage, there are fewer quality black candidates than white candidates, then even if the answer to the previous question is "yes," then the answer to the "racism" question is probably "no."

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-12-01T22:44:12-06:00

ID

69093

Comment

Finally, you have to ask this question: Could it be that in big-time sports, except in rare instances, racism is *not* a factor in whether black candidates are interviewed or hired, but instead, that the racism of the past has prevented the pipeline from being filled with quality candidates? Head coaches in big-time sports don't just pop out of grad school at age 25 and take over. Look at John Gruden - he gets all the press for being so young, but he's, what, 39 or 40? *Most* head coaches in big-time sports don't get hired until they're in their late forties or early 50's, after they've spent 25 years or so working their way up the ladder. So the racism in coaching that was prevalent up until, oh, the mid-eighties or so, when guys like Dennis Green and Art Schell started getting hired, is still having an effect on the pipeline, and will continue to do so for another 10 years or so. So - does racism play a role in the hiring of head coaches in big-time athletics? Yes and no. No: I don't think that in 2003, racism plays a role *in a significant number of cases*. Yes: I think that the effects of past racism are still rippling through the pipeline. I believe we are in a transitional phase, and that in 10 years you'll see a world of difference.

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-12-01T22:44:25-06:00

ID

69094

Comment

Fry, Time to re-do your calculations.

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-12-01T23:52:16-06:00

ID

69095

Comment

Greg, you still talk too much.

Author

Kate

Date

2003-12-02T09:37:49-06:00

ID

69096

Comment

Kate, So you admit I'm right.

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-12-02T10:54:35-06:00

ID

69097

Comment

Uh, no, Greg. I admit that you're long wiinded and tedious. I really don't care much about the race of head coaches in professional sports. And your 13 posts in the past 24 hours on this topic alone make it seem to me to be you talking too much. Or maybe talking to yourself, just to hear the melodious sound of your own thoughts.

Author

Kate

Date

2003-12-02T10:58:17-06:00

ID

69098

Comment

Greg, You said alot which you know I am going to respond to. But lke you said give me a couple of hours and I wll be back...

Author

Fry

Date

2003-12-02T11:02:11-06:00

ID

69099

Comment

Greg asked: "While I'm a-ruminatin', has anybody been to the new Indian place on I-55, Delhi Palace? What's the word?" Yes, it's very good, Greg. And I'm very picky about Indian food. It's really fresh. I also really like Ruchi for the South (right?) Indian food (the dosas, etc.) and this place for the North (and I apologize to Indian readers if I got the two regions mixed up). So, yes, definitely go there. I suppose we need a food blog, too, eh? ;-)

Author

ladd

Date

2003-12-02T12:10:50-06:00

ID

69100

Comment

Kate, I hate to break it to you, but I'm happily married.

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-12-02T12:54:12-06:00

ID

69101

Comment

Thanks for the invite, Greg. But I don't post on any other sites or blogs but this one. I don't have time. It's challenge enough to keep this one out of the gutter and focused on issues. ;-) Oh, and congrats on the happy marriage.

Author

ladd

Date

2003-12-02T13:20:56-06:00

ID

69102

Comment

Ah, there's that ego again, Greg.

Author

Kate

Date

2003-12-02T13:21:09-06:00

ID

69103

Comment

Donna, Tell Kate to stop teasing me. Oh wait a minute... what's that they say about teasing...?

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-12-02T14:53:13-06:00

ID

69104

Comment

OK, let's get back to the point of this blog -- media and "best practices." Greg wrote: "At some point in the recent past a few journalistic poobahs noticed that the facts of crime didn't conform to their social theory, so they decided to remove the evidence by establishing this so-called 'best practice' guideline." So, where's your source for this declaration, Greg? The fact is, the journalism industry -- just like all industries -- constantly evaluates its "best practices." If you actually mean by "recent past" a phrase like "since the Brown integration decision," you would be closer to correct, although not close enough.

Author

ladd

Date

2003-12-02T15:48:31-06:00

ID

69105

Comment

The fact is, the journalism industry has had to examine a lot of its practices very closely, and many that came because of the direct role the media played (and continue to play) in promoting racism in this country. The Kerner Commission report after the inner-city riots in the 1960s was scathing about how poorly the media covered black communities and their problems and how that directly contributed to crime and even the riots that occurred there -- in part, to draw attention to the terrible conditions. One of the commission's biggest points was that the media too often cover black crime with little or no context, contributing to false perceptions by the community at large that, in turn, create support for public policy that, in turn, hurts those communities and, in turn, contributes to more crime. It is a very vicious cycle, and, no, you can't pin it on some amorphous "lunatic fringe" (nice try, though) social theory that you don't seem to know anything about. This isn't talk radio, man: name your sources if you want to discuss serious issues rather than try to dismiss them with a flick of your impatient hand. Let's get past the apologetic rhetoric of the right and the left and talk about *real* issues here.

Author

ladd

Date

2003-12-02T15:50:00-06:00

ID

69106

Comment

BTW, while you're answering questions, Greg, I noticed you never answered mine from way above: Why is it important for a paper like the Northside Sun to reveal the race of criminals? As I've made clear above, society needs to aggregate, in context, who is committing what crimes. I know my reasoning, but why is it important to you specifically?

Author

ladd

Date

2003-12-02T15:56:41-06:00

ID

69107

Comment

Whether to identify the race or ethnicity of a person in a story is one of the most often-debated issues at nearly all the magazines where I've worked. Generally, what people seem to have settled on, for the time being, is that the race or ethnicity of the person is identified ONLY if it is materially substantial to the story. Otherwise, mentioning it seems to unnecessarily highlight a factoid that has no bearing on the story. Conventional wisdom says that for example, mentioning that the main character in a story plays checkers is pointless if the story is about how a lack of health insurance contributed to his poor health. What would his checker playing have to do with his health? BUT if playing checkers led to carpel tunnel syndrome, then obviously mentioning that fact would be key if the guy was trying to sue his employer for developing carpel tunnel syndrome during his work as a dog walker.

Author

Nia

Date

2003-12-02T16:35:25-06:00

ID

69108

Comment

Donna, As it happens, I spoke with the girl at the Sun today who writes the crime stories, and it turns out that she gets her information straight from the police dept. She says JPD used to include much more information - black male, red shirt, white pants, etc., etc. - which also went into the paper, but now they provide only the race of the suspect. So it goes into the paper. What's the problem?

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-12-02T19:28:30-06:00

ID

69109

Comment

Donna, "...society needs to aggregate, in context, who is committing what crimes." Just what in hell does this mean? "Aggregate, in context..."? Are you saying you'd be fine if, for example, at the bottom of each of the Sun's articles, there was a statement to the effect of, "This makes a total of X armed robberies committed by black males, and Y armed robberies commited by white males" ?

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-12-02T19:36:25-06:00

ID

69110

Comment

Greg, I'm not asking you to footnote everything you say, silly goose. Actually, I suggest often that people post URLs for backup sources, and will continue to do so as the goddess of the site (all might note that I've grown fond of that particular "goddess" insult). But it's most important to source a sweeping statement stated as fact that supposedly discredits some other stated fact, such as the one you used to try to arrogantly dismiss the "Best Practice" that I was referring to above. You acted as if you have inside, or well-researched, or well-studied knowledge into the science of journalism by proclaiming that "at some point in the recent past a few journalistic poobahs noticed that the facts of crime didn't conform to their social theory." I asked you to back up your statement; instead you simply complain that I want to know your source. Ahh. Sounds a bit Coutler-esque to me. Actually, admit it, guy: You pulled that proclamation out of thin air, didn't you?

Author

ladd

Date

2003-12-02T19:53:55-06:00

ID

69111

Comment

Of course the police are providing that info to the Northside Sun! Duh. You're showing even less knowledge about the, er, science of journalism if you think for one moment that the local media print everything that the police provides them! They choose what they print; always have, always will. You are seriously missing the point here, I assume by choice because you don't like it. And I'm not going to sit here and explain it over and over again, , like some blog puppet, after posting very clear info and links about why I believe what they do is a problem above. I've said clearly what the problem is, and posted to links to back that up. I am convinced that you have the power of reading comprehension at your command. Use it. Once you grasp the basic point I made above, without trying to twist it into something I didn't say, then I'll be happy to discuss the details further with you, if you'd like. You don't have to agree with me, but at least just try to comprehend basic words before you attack them.

Author

ladd

Date

2003-12-02T20:00:46-06:00

ID

69112

Comment

Greg writes: "Are you saying you'd be fine if, for example, at the bottom of each of the Sun's articles, there was a statement to the effect of, 'This makes a total of X armed robberies committed by black males, and Y armed robberies commited by white males'?" No, I am certainly not suggesting that -- although, arguably, it would be more "fair and balanced" than just mentioning race without any context. I tell you what, Greg: Let's start over and try to find a common language here before we discuss this further. Put your kneejerk snarkiness aside for a few minutes and go read some of the "Best Practices" stuff I posted (Freedom Forum, etc.) and get up-to-speed on the language, and particularly what is meant by "context" in journalism, and then let's start this dialogue over. You're here simply to refute, Greg, without taking time to even try to understand the initial point before you attack it, and it's extremely tiresome.

Author

ladd

Date

2003-12-02T20:23:21-06:00

ID

69113

Comment

Speaking of existing to refute ... as for the Two Lakes Buzz bit, it rather tickles me that someone who hides (rather miserably) behind the curtain of anonymous cyber-communications waiting for a moment to explode into unnamed spasms on the JFP site would crack a gut over our quoting an unnamed source in an e-mail in our Buzz column. Irony really isn't dead, is it? But I understand the importance of having good anti-media watchpups out in the community, and appreciate your questioning our ethics. Every outlet should be questioned. I say that seriously. To put your mind at ease, Vee: I have it on good authority that the EDITOR knows who made that comment that we quoted. And you'll soon read a longer piece in the JFP on the Two Lakes topic in which you see how one can take communications, cyber and otherwise, from readers and use them to research a topic deeper. I'd like to take credit for the feisty technique but it's, uh, done all the time.

Author

ladd

Date

2003-12-02T20:26:20-06:00

ID

69114

Comment

When "discussing" things with Greg, it's best to remember that this is the person who took my statement "you talk too much" to mean that I agreed with what he said. And then he decided that when I said he was long winded, that meant I was "teasing." Either english isn't his first language, or he deliberately tries to misunderstand.

Author

Kate

Date

2003-12-02T20:49:00-06:00

ID

69115

Comment

Donna, "You pulled that proclamation out of thin air, didn't you?" Well... out of *something*, yeah...

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-12-02T21:18:36-06:00

ID

69116

Comment

No, VeeMee, we're going to look at both (or, perhaps ALL) sides of the project. And if you have knowledge of factual errors in the JFP, please share them; we are perfectly willing to make corrections when we make mistakes. As you like to remind us all, we only have five readers, but we like to keep them factually apprised.

Author

ladd

Date

2003-12-02T21:30:01-06:00

ID

69117

Comment

Hmm.... I kind of like the idea of advertisers paying personally VBell. I would rather them pay than me but I'd be willing to fork over a few bucks for a bi-weekly that published info alternatives. I can only assume by the amount of paying advertisers and hits to the site that Donna and the JFP crew have something special going. Whether it jives with your mojo or anyone elses, obviously does not matter because the columns of advertisers say it all. Snobbery? I can only assume you'd feel that way since you literally try to bully on the boards. As Kate suggested, Greg brings debate to the table (lights on you Greg ;-) ) and attempts to have dialog while you simply jab weak jabs at Donna, specifically. Poor thing. Most be lonely in your corner having only sticks and stones to throw. As for finding problems with the Two Lakes project as you suggested JFP will do. There are plenty of problems with the project. Everyone knows that... but has few details of what those problems are and what the proposed solutions are. If you are so pro-Twin Lakes (I don't you have many details on the project), why don't you offer them up? Or were you simply being an antagonist? Really, it's so easy to hurl insults (13 year old bullies do it in junior high); can you bring anything else?

Author

Knol Aust

Date

2003-12-02T21:32:17-06:00

ID

69118

Comment

Otherwise, VeeHeeHee, you're not making a great pitch to be our new business consultant, although you're welcome to come by the office and discuss the position if you'd like. (Other former flamers work with me as well; I'm big on turnin' the other cheek.) I will warn you, though: You are demonstrating vera, vera little knowledge about where the newspaper business is headed. I'll give you one business tip: the paid weekly model is quickly dying as a smart business idea. And even the paid DAILY model is in trouble. So, no, you won't be seeing us make that mistake anytime soon. Thanks for the suggestion, though.

Author

ladd

Date

2003-12-02T21:32:21-06:00

ID

69119

Comment

Hey Greg, I actually almost typed something else, but my snobbish Neshoba County breeding won out. ;-D You know, all, everytime we respond to VeeBaby and devolve into a flame war like this, I feel like I just got out of the wrong person's bed. I appreciate you all defending me against VBell, but responding to flames do not bring out the best of any of us. And it sure doesn't add anything to the "Best Practices" media discussion, which needs to happen, regardless of trolls. [Why am I the only one who can't post much on this blog!? Greg, did you hack me? ]

Author

ladd

Date

2003-12-02T21:43:27-06:00

ID

69120

Comment

VBell clearly has one purpose. She (and she is a she; I've seen her AOL profile, for the record; I'm not going to post the link, though, so don't ask) wants to marginalize the very special, positive thing that the JFP is at the middle of in Jackson. She is going to continue to do the na-na-na-boo-boo thing as long as we respond to her, so that we waste our time sniping at her, instead of keeping our eyes on the prize. The fact is, she hasn't offered one interesting thing to the discussion. Can we all agree to let her pout in the corner of the sandbox? I will, if you will.

Author

ladd

Date

2003-12-02T21:45:22-06:00

ID

69121

Comment

Donna, "BTW, while you're answering questions, Greg, I noticed you never answered mine from way above..." All in good time, grasshopper. Let's first get you to answer *MY* question, which is basically: Why is it OK to mention someone's race in the context of a social crisis in which they're portrayed as victims, or when they're having success in this field or that, but not when they commit crimes? Here's what you tried to pass off as an answer: "...reporting race just to be including it (and, seemingly, to try to show how awful and criminal blacks are), but of course without context, is indeed neanderthal." First of all, simply reporting the fact that a black person committed a crime does not, by any stretch of the imagination, "try to show how awful and criminal blacks are." The *only* way in which simply reporting that a black man assaulted someone in a parking lot amounts to "trying to show how awful and criminal black are." is when it's filtered through Donna Ladd's agenda. As the crime reporter at the [snip] [The above was edited by the JFP as it contained an unconfirmed quote from a third party.]

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-12-02T21:49:59-06:00

ID

69122

Comment

Donna, So as far as what race has to do with other things, what the hell is this: "Mississippi State has become the first SEC school to hire an African-American head football coach." I'll tell you what it is: It's the very first sentence of the current lead story on THIS SITE. But I have to ask: Who gives a damn that Croom is the first black coach in SEC history? Certainly not Croom. I guarantee you he thinks of himself as a husband, father, and son first, the MSU head coach second, an SEC coach third, a leader of young men fourth, and *perhaps* a black man somewhere well after that. Certainly MSU doesn't seem to think it's important. They had an 8-paragraph press release that didn't mention his race *once*. I know *I* don't give a damn what his race is. All I care about is whether he can beat LSU and Alabama, and help keep the state from being the laughingstck of the SEC every year. So again I'll ask you, using your very own paper as an example: Why is it worth mentioning that a black man got a job as a football coach, but it's NOT worth mentioning that a black man robbed someone at gunpoint? Could it be, as I suspect, that it's OK to point out back people's successes, but it's not OK to point out their failures? Or is it just a "socially conscious" way of saying, "dog bites man is not news"? I am *dying* to hear this one.

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-12-02T21:50:21-06:00

ID

69123

Comment

(I have no idea why you can't post much, Donna, but you can rest assured that if I *had* hacked you, I wouldn't be so lame as to simply limit how much you say. I'd be having you supporting the elimination of the capital gains tax, pulling out of the UN, accelerating the implementation of school vouchers, and putting tight restrictions on abortion. But for what it's worth, as I'm continually reminded by the threadbot here, there's something like a 2,500 character limit on each post. Maybe long-windedness is catching?)

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-12-02T22:01:02-06:00

ID

69124

Comment

Donna: "Can we all agree to let her pout in the corner of the sandbox? I will, if you will." Philip: I also suggest give our Killer Chihuahua a chew toy while we are at it - just don't forget to offer it either either hot or mild sauce. Right, Bell?

Author

Philip

Date

2003-12-02T22:36:42-06:00

ID

69125

Comment

Greg, this is easy to answer. Again, class: WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT ANY AND ALL REFERENCES TO RACE. I wrote way above: "The fact is, I don't have a problem identifying someone's race, as long as there's a reason to." [Here's the tech problem. My browser is only letting me post this much at a time. I'll have to whine to the Blog God. I was kidding about the hack, cricket.]

Author

ladd

Date

2003-12-02T22:44:48-06:00

ID

69126

Comment

cont. ... Reasons might include all sorts of things: celebrating the first black football coach or statewide elected official (why NOT celebrate it?); showing that the state isn't a racist wasteland (it's not, to all you "outsiders" reading this; to discuss the context (the "why") of various criminal problems such as a question like "why are blacks disproportionately sentenced worse for drug crimes?" or "why do more young men in certain communities rather than others commit certain crimes?" ...

Author

ladd

Date

2003-12-02T22:47:00-06:00

ID

69127

Comment

cont... ... or why is black-on-black crime so high and what can be done about it, or "a black teenager, with wearing an ecko jersey and riding a green bicycle sped away from the scene," and so on, and so on. Or a discussion about race dialogue in a community.

Author

ladd

Date

2003-12-02T22:47:58-06:00

ID

69128

Comment

cont. ... There are many reasons to mention race that do not sound simply as if a newspaper is trying to play up crime by blacks and downplay crime by others. As anyone can tell you, I'm all for open dialogue about race, and between the races; I'm not for quick jabs that lack context and, in fact, worsen the trust and the dialogue, and make Mississippi appear like a racist wasteland. We're not, and our media should reflect that.

Author

ladd

Date

2003-12-02T22:48:25-06:00

ID

69129

Comment

OK, that's it. I think the Blog God is telling me that I'm officially spending too much time online by not letting me post but four lines at a time. I believe I will bid adieu, or adios as the language fits, and let y'all have it. You survived without me last week. Talk among yourselves. I'm on sabbatical for a while; I have a million deadlines, JFP and otherwise. Cheers, and pass the hot sauce.

Author

ladd

Date

2003-12-02T22:51:27-06:00

ID

69130

Comment

DONNA. DONNA It is evident that there is a sincere need for a race realtions town meeting or something of the sort. Not to say that Greg is a racist or anything but his views are shared by many. Often it is not that white people do not like blacks and blacks do not like whites. I think it is more about understanding and learning from one another. I think if the Jackson Free Press organized something of that magnitude that it would go down as a monumental event just like the SEC hiring the first black head coach. A race relations seminar is greatly needed... I think Greg and I have learned alot in our debate as far as how both sides view several issues. And for that knowledge we are both alot smarter.

Author

Fry

Date

2003-12-02T23:14:56-06:00

ID

69131

Comment

Agreed, Brian. Contact me directly about it. I'm on a blogging sabbatical to get my other work caught up.

Author

ladd

Date

2003-12-02T23:27:22-06:00

ID

69132

Comment

Donna, OK, this has gone beyond comical. In my earliest posts, I say that you have an agenda that includes generously using race to cast blacks as victims, but never to cast light on their failures. You proceed to flail your arms about how that's not true. Now you go and say this: " '...why are blacks disproportionately sentenced worse for drug crimes?' or 'why do more young men in certain communities rather than others commit certain crimes?' " You can bring yourself to wonder about why blacks might be getting the shaft in drug sentencing, but even in your examples you can't bring yourself to mention race in *the most* important question here: WHY DO BLACK MALES COMMIT CRIMES AT A RATE MANY TIMES THEIR PERCENTAGE OF THE POPULATION? I would laugh, except that it's so pathetic.

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-12-02T23:36:12-06:00

ID

69133

Comment

Greg, Greg ... on the one hand, I see your point about a parallel construction, but there is no substantive "gotcha" here. The fact is, I am not going to type the words you want me to, out of a wider context, saying that one race commits more crimes than whites, for some yo-yo to come along and lift out of context. You're familiar with that habit, yes?

Author

todd

Date

2003-12-03T00:02:09-06:00

ID

69134

Comment

Fry, My views are shared by many for a reason. Blacks as well as whites, as a matter of fact. A lot of people have asked an awful lot of questions over a very long period of time, and most of them have arrived at the same distressing conclusions: - Most of the black community's leaders view white people's ideas about crime prevention in the black community, no matter how constructive, as inherently racist. - Most of the black community's leaders insist that only the black community can solve the black community's crime problems. - The epidemic of crime among young black males shows no signs of getting better. - Whenever someone asks, "Why aren't things getting better?" inevitably the charge of white racism is leveled. - Repeat ad infinitum. Really, you need only one topic for your town meeting: - What causes black men to abandon their children? In other words, what causes the single most destructive thing to raising well-adjusted, law-abiding children - the absence of a strong and responsible father? Hint: It ain't racism. And please - don't waste your time on the poverty question. Every single day, a billion destitute people around the world somehow make it through the day without committing a crime.

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-12-03T00:02:10-06:00

ID

69135

Comment

[The above "todd" comment is from me. I switched machines.] cont ... I made my point, and you've just proved once and for all that you don't give a damn about what the real issues are; you're out to play games with words and, it seems, lives. No, Mr. Griffith, I am not ashamed at all that I care enough about other human beings not to just make rash statements like you're so willing to do. I have said repeatedly that truth, in context, is vital, no matter what it says. But I'm sick of you trying to make me apologize for caring for other human beings. Your little conservative con game is starting to really sicken me, and I'm not playing anymore, pure and simple. This really is my last posting to you; I tried again, and it is truly a waste of my time. You can watch the paper for the upcoming stories on these and related issues; they might answer some of your questions. And, I will note, you still haven't answered mine. Don't bother. You've made your point all too well. Your agenda is crystal clear.

Author

ladd

Date

2003-12-03T00:05:51-06:00

ID

69136

Comment

todd (if that IS your real name), Good grief. I'm not asking you to type *anything* that can "be lifted out of context." What possible context is there to this simple statement of fact: Black men commit crimes at a rate many times their percentage of the population? There's no more "context" to that statement than there is to "Jackson is the capital of Mississippi."

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-12-03T00:20:06-06:00

ID

69137

Comment

your question-- "Black men commit crimes at a rate many times their percentage of the population?" One possible answer-- http://www.musarium.com/withoutsanctuary/main.html Dont miss 26 & 27. they're all real. caution-- graphic

Author

kenny

Date

2003-12-03T00:28:36-06:00

ID

69138

Comment

Get over yourself, Donna. The only agenda here is yours, and it's as crystal-clear as it gets. You refuse to face facts. You refuse to deal with the issue head-on. You refuse to stop playing namby-pamby games about "context" and "aggregating." You refuse to place the blame where it lies. This is not about who cares more than whom, and it's damn sure not about anybody here being a racist. But it *is* about a lot of people insisting that the blame lies with whitey, or "society," or "the media," or anybody, anything else, except WHO'S REALLY RESPONSIBLE. I'll say all day long: Whites were responsible for slavery. Whites were reponsible for Jim Crow. Whites were responsible for civil-rights foot-dragging in the sixties and well into the seventies. See? It's easy to place blame on the race where blame belongs. There's plenty of blame to go around. I just refuse to believe the lie that the blame for crime in the black community today lies anywhree but WITH THE BLACK COMMUNITY. The truth hurts. Are you telling me JFP is a pain-free zone?

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-12-03T00:34:01-06:00

ID

69139

Comment

Kenny, So... 70-year-old lynchings explain why 17-year-old kids holds up liquor stores? And why most black crime is committed against OTHER blacks? Pathetic.

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-12-03T00:39:37-06:00

ID

69140

Comment

Greg: Your argument would be better served by losing the "Pathetic." It's a cheap device.

Author

Todd Stauffer

Date

2003-12-03T00:50:32-06:00

ID

69141

Comment

Kenny, I am not sure how the past reflects the current situation in crime. I can see how you may tie it all neatly together but would the Jewish in Germany not be guilty of similar crimes for their oppression? What about the Irish in the States and elsewhere? What about the freed slaves of the eras gone by and the oppressed of many others? Hell, gays have even seen many of their own recently lynched, beaten, dragged behind cars and more on the news in the last 5 years. But there's been no explosion in "pink crimes" nor reasons for it. While I sympathize and feel the angry and painful past we all share as a community, I do not feel it validates any crime... Further, I am curious how it can be said that black-on-black crime is tied to unjust activities perpetrated by ignorant white men/women decades ago... Most of the kids/men within the age range of those perpetrating crimes barely know history(according to most advocates claiming it is lacking education) much less have experienced the dreadful past directly. Further, the history they learned, if any, was a fairly bleached down version (read: the white man's version). So, I guess what I'm saying is that I do not understand how the past (as you've highlighted with postcards of lynchings) ties directly to drug-related and black-on-black crime. I could totally understand if it were black-on-white and done with vengence or angst (read: kill the white man) but in truth they generally aren't done for the sake of "righting," "avenging" or "balancing" the wrongs of the past... They are done for bling, crack, rites of passage, greed, addiction, false survival needs and many other reasons that are nowhere near historical revolution. Is it possible that the problem is less of the past and more of our social/urban infrastructure and policies of new?

Author

Knol Aust

Date

2003-12-03T00:59:12-06:00

ID

69142

Comment

Todd is *my* real name. The earlier post was something Donna did on my computer. These under my full name are mine. Greg, I scanned all these posts and noticed you mentioned the MSU story. You said this: [quote]So again I'll ask you, using your very own paper as an example: Why is it worth mentioning that a black man got a job as a football coach, but it's NOT worth mentioning that a black man robbed someone at gunpoint? ... ...But I have to ask: Who gives a damn that Croom is the first black coach in SEC history?[/quote]

Author

Todd Stauffer

Date

2003-12-03T01:11:40-06:00

ID

69143

Comment

The answer would be -- thousands, probably millions, of people. The main narrative for African-Americans over the past 200+ years has been a struggle for equality. The fact that the first African-American man has been hired as a coach in the Southeastern Conference of U.S. college football is both historic and extraordinary -- by definition. It would be an omission to fail to report such an important aspect of these, as these publications, for instance (not exhaustive, obviously), seem to agree: AP: http://www.montereyherald.com/mld/montereyherald/sports/7377359.htm Gannett Wisconsin: http://www.packersnews.com/archives/news/pack_13423367.shtml C-L: http://www.clarionledger.com/news/0311/28/wrusty.html

Author

Todd Stauffer

Date

2003-12-03T01:16:45-06:00

ID

69144

Comment

Greg, It appears that you debating with others takes a different tone than the one used when we debate. Maybe you respect my views as I respect yours. So, please let's get back on the respect level. Now, surprisingly I agree with you on some of your points. We in the black community should take a more responsible role in the actions taking by our peers and stop blaming others'. I agree with that whole heartedly. I tell my friends all the time how amazing it is to watch the hundreds of thousands of people gather at the Jackson State vs Alcorn game and no crime is committed against one another. I ask often how come that peace and happiness that takes place at the game cannot transform to our communities. So as far as that goes I agree that we need to take more responsibility. Yet Greg, you must still understand a few economical issues that hurt young people. For instance the streeotypes that already exists. Sure there is an overwhelming percentage of young black men committing crimes but that does not mean that all young men commit crimes. It hurts when I get on an elevator with a white woman and she squeezes her purse because she thinks I may try to grab it. It hurts when I go to a popular jewelry store and do not receive the same respect and attention that the other customer who came after me gets. Continued below...

Author

Fry

Date

2003-12-03T01:16:47-06:00

ID

69145

Comment

[more] [quote]Certainly MSU doesn't seem to think it's important. They had an 8-paragraph press release that didn't mention his race *once*.[/quote] Which proves the rule that you should never rely on the press release for the story. The press release I read on MSU's Web site also didn't mention that he's a husband, father or son.

Author

Todd Stauffer

Date

2003-12-03T01:19:23-06:00

ID

69146

Comment

[quote]I know *I* don't give a damn what his race is. All I care about is whether he can beat LSU and Alabama, and help keep the state from being the laughingstck of the SEC every year.[/quote] I'm thrilled that he's black, as I think it represents a moment in history that MSU alumni (and the adoring fans of their adoring fans) can be proud of. I'm also glad he wasn't chosen *because* he's black, but rather for his qualifications, for the same reasons you state above. Beat the hell outta... [quote]Could it be, as I suspect, that it's OK to point out back people's successes, but it's not OK to point out their failures?[/quote] Nope. It's OK to point out race when it's a significant part of the story, as has been stated above. The MSU story qualifies, big time.

Author

Todd Stauffer

Date

2003-12-03T01:19:52-06:00

ID

69147

Comment

Greg, When I mention economic equality remember I am referring to money and all things pertaining to money. That goes from jobs to living conditions. Let me use this as an example. I was helping a young lady and her mother get an apartment. They met all the requirements but the apartment complex kept giving them the run around. So, finally I met with the aprtment manger and he basically said he did not want to rent to them because she was black and young and according to him that is a majority of the people whom he has trouble with. So, I explained that in this case it did not apply. See that is what I mean by economic equality, just the same economic opportunities that others' receive. If she was caucasian none of that would have taken place. I know because I had the another family who was white and in the same age bracket apply and they were instantly approved. The manager told me himself that the young lady whom was black had excellent credit. And trust me that goes on in more than just apartment buildings. That also happens on the job, applications and interviews. Just look at like this. If that young person was employed at Northpark mall he would be at work instead of robbing someone. If he was working at one of these places he would not have the same time or motivation to commit these acts. Thus, economic equality is a huge key in a non-violent society.

Author

Fry

Date

2003-12-03T01:28:46-06:00

ID

69148

Comment

Donna. I will call you or come by tomorrow or you can call me when you are free so I can come by. Take care and thanks for all of your hard work. Your hard work, effort, and truthfulness does not go unnoticed....

Author

Fry

Date

2003-12-03T01:30:54-06:00

ID

69149

Comment

Knol, I don't think the point is excusing black-on-white, black-on-black, or any crime: It's about understanding the psychology of black communities, so that they can be helped and so that crime, both within and outside, black communities be lessened. (Here, too, other races can be interchanged, depending on the community.) Many people in the black community are working very hard toward that goal and should be commended. I do think we can hold two, or several, thoughts at once, and one of those can and should be a grasp of how a very difficult history can make the current job more challenging.

Author

ladd

Date

2003-12-03T01:48:32-06:00

ID

69150

Comment

cont. ... Does that excuse (or "validate") crime? Most certainly not. No one has said it does. "Explain" and "validate" are two very different words. As I pointed out far above, Chief Moore himself has urged media to focus more on the reality of black-on-black crime and its causes and cures. One part, and only one part, of that is going to be to understand how communities became so broken in the first place. Then, we must look at what has and what needs to be done to fix those communities. We absolutely need to face exactly what crime happens where, so that we can lessen the conditions that are leading to those crimes. That is as good a reason that I can think of for aggregating crime numbers.

Author

ladd

Date

2003-12-03T01:54:46-06:00

ID

69151

Comment

Brian, thanks so much for your postings here and for what you do in the community. You're a star. Yes, call me Wednesday; I'll be pretty tied up until noon, but the afternoon is good. G'night.

Author

ladd

Date

2003-12-03T01:56:02-06:00

ID

69152

Comment

Todd, Very well, then. Thousands, perhaps millions of people care that Sly Croom is black. That's their prerogative. Some people care that the man who snatched a purse in their apartment complex parking lot is black. So stop filtering the facts to suit your ideology, and just report them. Look, it's laughably obvious why Donna objects to mentioning race in crime stories. It's because a steady drip-drip-drip of stories that mentions that the perpetrator is black, amounts to a Chinese water torture (can I say "Chinese"?) for people like her, who may know at some subsconscious level what the facts really are, but who are so blinded by their agenda that they can't bring themselves to deal with it on a conscious level. The dissonance would be just too much to take. Her gears would grind to a halt and smoke would start rising from her ears. Meanwhile, we're writing off another generation of young black men while liberal do-gooder Neros sit and fiddle in ivory towers. But at least they feel good about themselves and how much they care, and I guess that's what's really important.

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-12-03T09:53:27-06:00

ID

69153

Comment

Donna, This is just ridiculous. And I mean it - "deserving of ridicule": "It's about understanding the psychology of black communities" You people have had 40 years to "understand the psychology of the black community." It only took 4 to build the atomic bomb. But even if you ever do understand, what are you going to do? What is The Plan? "...so that they can be helped..." This is really the best part of all. Who are you to think you can, or are even welcome to, "help" them, as if they're little lost puppies waiting for some white woman with her fancy degrees and hip newspaper to sashay in and save them from themselves? Yeah, blacks are helpless and doomed to lives of crime and ignorance until the better-educated, *more caring* white folks deign to help them. Pardon me while I retch.

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-12-03T10:28:40-06:00

ID

69154

Comment

Greg, I am going to pick up Donna's response to your recent post. So, from now on you can address those issues to me and within a few hours I will definitely unleash answers and questions to you that more than likely you will avoid or take out of context, but I am looking forward to challenging not just those who are not educated but also those who appear to be miseducated like????

Author

Fry

Date

2003-12-03T10:46:57-06:00

ID

69155

Comment

Meanwhile, we're writing off another generation of young black men while liberal do-gooder Neros sit and fiddle in ivory towers. It's the "liberal do-gooder" in "ivory towers"? This couldn't be more of a non-answer. This is not argumentation, just a strawman fallacy -- there is no "liberal do-gooder" boogeyman that you can simply knock down here. Your second post to Donna attempts the same approach again, and fails again. You say at once that young black men are being "written off" and then ridicule the line: "...so that they can be helped..." So, which is it? Write them off? Help them? Or just blame?

Author

Todd Stauffer

Date

2003-12-03T12:38:44-06:00

ID

69156

Comment

Let's speak to the issue. You've purported to ask a single question on this thread, which became two questions. This first is a discussion of the Sun's use of race in its stories. I'll stick to that discussion for now. You're right about one thing -- The approach that the Sun takes is a Chinese water torture, but not for "liberal do-gooders" (or not exclusively for such people, who actually sound like folks I might enjoy having coffee with) but for anyone who knows and appreciates the difference between *anecdotal* and *scientific* evidence. For instance, if I were to flip to the "C" section of the Northside Sun and use their reporting as evidence, it would be perfectly clear that the schoolchild population of the Sun's reporting region is about 90-95 percent white. That's an anecdotal read, not a scientific one. By aggregating statistics for that region of the Jackson Metro, I'd have a better sense of the demographics of schools in that part of town.

Author

Todd Stauffer

Date

2003-12-03T12:41:40-06:00

ID

69157

Comment

The Northside Sun clearly makes choices about the schools -- and by extension the schoolchildren -- it covers. I'm not criticizing it for that. (Not now, at least.) But the fact is that you couldn't possibly rely on the "Chinese water torture" of smiling, ruddy faces in section C to make any sort of scientific guess about the demographics of school-aged population of the area it covers. Wouldn't it be a flaw in logic to then assume that in the anecdotal reporting of the race of those involved in property crime -- which is actually only a small blot of Sun coverage compared to its coverage of the accomplishments of school-aged children -- is somehow adding to our understanding of who is commiting crimes in Northeast Jackson and why?

Author

Todd Stauffer

Date

2003-12-03T12:42:30-06:00

ID

69158

Comment

The fundamental question that a journalist will ask himself or herself is -- does the race (or religion or height or eye color) of the person in question add to *this* story. If the story is about a criminal on the loose, then a police description (height, weight, apparent ethnicity, identifying marks) is warranted; if the story is a scientific look at the statistics of crime, race may also be important. If you're pulling six stories off the blotter and running them under the jump header "Crime" then the race of the perp is anecdotal unless it's part of an identification meant to help with a crime watch program.

Author

Todd Stauffer

Date

2003-12-03T12:51:53-06:00

ID

69159

Comment

Greg, you say... Some people care that the man who snatched a purse in their apartment complex parking lot is black. Why do they care?

Author

Todd Stauffer

Date

2003-12-03T12:54:46-06:00

ID

69160

Comment

Fry, Do you not see the core silliness of the idea that white liberals are going to "help" blacks overcome generations of poverty, violence and crime? I mean, come on: How long does it take to "understand the psychology" behind black crime? White liberals have been trying to do that since at least the Johnson administration. If they haven't figured it out by now, what hope is there that they ever will? Ask yourself: What are the chances that they will ever stop theorizing, holding conferences, and conducting federally-funded studies, and actually reach some consensus, at which point they have to say goodbye to all the publicity and the grant money? The answer is: Zero. Blacks in America have endured 250 years of slavery, and another 100 years of segregation and institutionalized oppression. Despite all that, along the way they also managed to produce scores of great writers, artists, musicians, and scholars. They didn't do it because they are weak-willed, weak-minded, or because of the largesse of white people. They did it because they possess the remarkable strength and resiliency of humans everywhere to rise above injustice.

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-12-03T13:29:39-06:00

ID

69161

Comment

You want to talk about racism? How about the idea that American blacks can't solve their own problems unless they get help from a few self-appointed white redeemers? Brian, you know exactly what I'm talking about. Not only *can't* white liberals help, but they shouldn't be so presumptuous as to think they can. Let's face it: Black crime is a black thing, and when it improves, it will be through the efforts of black people. No amount of white "help" is going to matter until blacks decide own their own to fix things. Thinking any different is patronizing at best. Race matters. It is not something that disappears just because some black "leaders" and white elitists say it should. Whenever they get all a-flutter about Sylvester Croom, they're saying that race matters. Whenever they brag about how how many people of color were at their latest cocktail party/book signing/exhibit opening, they're saying race matters. Whenever they get in an uproar because Ward Connerly wants to remove checkboxes, they're saying race matters. Obviously I can't demean good intentions, but I can certainly point out that the road we're on now is paved with them.

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-12-03T13:29:55-06:00

ID

69162

Comment

Some people care that the man who snatched a purse in their apartment complex parking lot is black. Why do they care? I guess for much the same reason you care that Sylvester Croom is black: Evidently, race matters to some people. And I'm sure there are a rainbow of reasons why.

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-12-03T13:34:46-06:00

ID

69163

Comment

Greg, I agree, things will change when the black community accepts more responsibility and moves forward. But I said that already. Thus that point is mute and irrelevant now. But I disagree with you when you say that white people cannot help. Let me explain like this, crime is not only being committed against blacks and in the black community. Crime is being committed in white communities and against white people. Thus it is our problem. When I say our I mean people in general. It takes a whole village to raise a child no just half who are white or half who are black. It is going to take the actions by us to change the crime situation and everything else too. Also, you said no white liberal can do anything. Personally, I care less about liberals or conservatives. I think both of them are all talk and no action. I am not about to support any one group of people. I am about people as whole, you know united we stand or to me the only time we stood united on Capitol Hill was after 9-11 and then the people divided again. Put that Rand D aside and place the people first. Now, I do care about the truth and facts. The truth is the main and only thing relevant to me. Now, let's just say that Bill Gates (who is white) came here and developed a mini microsoft and trained the employees. You cannot tell me that will not have an impact on crime and everything else because those individuals who are considering committing crimes will then have the chance to make a nice legal salary. Criminals understand risks and rewards. The risks to do crimes will not outweigh the rewards to work at Microsoft. Thus, a white man can help out the situation. I do not care if they are white, black, puple, or red. If they come here to help improve the present situation then I am on their side. Once agin that is just another example of economic equality and how it can and will alter many many things. 1 being the amount of crime committed by young minorities.

Author

Fry

Date

2003-12-03T14:08:30-06:00

ID

69164

Comment

Greg, when an economic opportunity comes that will better a person's situation, they usually takes it. Here is my argument versus yours in a nutshell. Both Jay-Z 50 Cent the rappers were selling drugs but then they realized I can make more money (legal too) by using the entertainment platform. Thus, let me quit doing the illegal thing and make use of the legal financial opportunity. Thus, if young people in generalare presented with an opportunity to make legal money they will trade in the life of crime. Thus, it all revolves around being able to gain economic equality. Equal economics will change and has changed alot of things.

Author

Fry

Date

2003-12-03T14:15:02-06:00

ID

69165

Comment

I guess for much the same reason you care that Sylvester Croom is black: Evidently, race matters to some people. And a rainbow of reasons why. Are you honestly saying that reporting the hiring of the first black coach in Southeastern Conference college football history and reporting that the perpetrator of a "near mugging" in a shopping mall parking lot was black are analogous? If so, I'd love to hear your rationale. So far, the way I read you, you're saying that we *should* print the race of a perp, and should *not* print the race of an SEC coach. Fascinating. Previously you said the Croon being black didn't matter and you didn't care about it, but apparently you *do* care about the race of perps in the Sun's crime coverage, as you are vociferously advocating that it continue to report race. Which is it? Perhaps you think it's important to highlight only the negative?

Author

Todd Stauffer

Date

2003-12-03T14:16:12-06:00

ID

69166

Comment

Sorry for the typos and grammar errors. I was in a hurry to write because I have to go. But Greg, we are not thru yet.......

Author

Fry

Date

2003-12-03T14:16:52-06:00

ID

69167

Comment

Let's face it: Black crime is a black thing, and when it improves, it will be through the efforts of black people. No amount of white "help" is going to matter until blacks decide own their own to fix things. Thinking any different is patronizing at best. I'll just add one thing to what Brian is saying...What exactly is it that you're advocating that white people stop doing?

Author

Todd Stauffer

Date

2003-12-03T14:18:36-06:00

ID

69168

Comment

What I mean when I say that whites can't help, is that whites will never be the impetus, the driving force, the agent of change. That must come from within the black community. What whites can do, mainly, is get out of the way, but they can also do things such as Brian is suggesting: reach out and offer things that the black community can take advantage of. They can also thump those in the head who think that the problem can be solved by prissy psychological analysis and earnest brow-furring over cocktails. That said, Brian is introducing a faulty line of reasoning in his Bill Gates example. Gates may indeed be able to offer jobs to the black community, but it won't do much good if the black community can't provide *him* with qualified applicants. That means improving graduation rates and test scores *drastically*, among other things. Neither is it the case - not said, but implied - that *without* such efforts on the part of white people, the crime situation among blacks can't improve.

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-12-03T14:54:10-06:00

ID

69169

Comment

The Jay-Z/50 Cent example is also flawed. It represents a fantasy world in which young black men can wake up one day and say, "I think I'll become a professional rapper instead of dealing crack." It's like saying that they can roll out of bed one day and say, "I think I'll stop dealing crack and become a professional basketball player. Goodbye, life of crime!" A tiny sliver of one percent of them actually make it to that level in either profession.

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-12-03T14:56:41-06:00

ID

69170

Comment

Todd, Are you honestly saying that reporting the hiring of the first black coach in Southeastern Conference college football history and reporting that the perpetrator of a "near mugging" in a shopping mall parking lot was black are analogous? If so, I'd love to hear your rationale. So far, the way I read you, you're saying that we *should* print the race of a perp, and should *not* print the race of an SEC coach. That's not at all what I said, and a re-reading of my post will make that clear. What I said was: Could it be, as I suspect, that it's OK to point out back people's successes, but it's not OK to point out their failures? Or is it just a "socially conscious" way of saying, "dog bites man is not news"?

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-12-03T15:00:25-06:00

ID

69171

Comment

Todd, What exactly is it that you're advocating that white people stop doing? Simple: Stop spewing b.s. 1. Cut the "understanding the psychology" crap. This is not that complicated an issue. 2. Realize that the cause of black crime is not slavery, or lynchings, or Jim Crow, but the absence of strong two-parent homes in which the differences between right and wrong are taught and enforced throughout a child's life. That includes things like staying in school, not having kids out of wedlock, and that while there's nothing wrong with wanting the trappings of success, there is everything wrong with committing crimes to get them. 3. Stop thinking that without the help of white elites, there is no hope for the black community. 4. Stop thinking that only liberal ideology can prescribe remedies. 5. Stop blaming white people for black people's problems. 6. Stop charging racism BEFORE you've determined if the problem is due to something else. 7. Stop enabling clowns like Jackson and Cochran and Sharpton, who have nothing to gain and everything to lose if blacks stop being oppressed victims and start being independent and successful members of American society.

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-12-03T15:11:09-06:00

ID

69172

Comment

That's not at all what I said, and a re-reading of my post will make that clear. What I said was: OK...I guess you're trying to say that you didn't *say* anything, you just asked questions. So let me put it this way: 1. Do you or do you not support the Northside Sun's reporting of race in crime stories? 2. Do you or do you not support the reporting of race in the story about Coach Croom?

Author

Todd Stauffer

Date

2003-12-03T16:11:31-06:00

ID

69173

Comment

Simple: Stop spewing b.s. Greg -- this just begs the question. I suppose it's the "tell 'em what you're gonna tell 'em" soundbyte portion of your response, so presumably we're supposed to move on to the numbered items. In your list, let's dispense with 3-6 -- no one said them but you -- "white elites" and "liberal ideology" are your characterizations with zero support -- they're all colorful pinatas you've created specifically to swat. In 7, we have more strawmen -- Jackson and Cochran (?) and Sharpton have not been mentioned, have not been sourced and are not part of the discussion. The notion that they feel more or less "enabled" by the existence of this thread seems unlikely.

Author

Todd Stauffer

Date

2003-12-03T16:12:51-06:00

ID

69174

Comment

2. Realize that the cause of black crime is not slavery, or lynchings, or Jim Crow, but the absence of strong two-parent homes in which the differences between right and wrong are taught and enforced throughout a child's life. That includes things like staying in school, not having kids out of wedlock, and that while there's nothing wrong with wanting the trappings of success, there is everything wrong with committing crimes to get them. OK, now we're getting somewhere -- at least you're looking -- if tangentially -- at root causes. But if these are "the cause of black crime," (singular form of "cause" noted) then what is the cause or causes white crime? The same issues? Are the causes of white crime equally simple?

Author

Todd Stauffer

Date

2003-12-03T16:14:33-06:00

ID

69175

Comment

In your list, let's dispense with 3-6 -- no one said them but you -- "white elites" and "liberal ideology" are your characterizations with zero support -- they're all colorful pinatas you've created specifically to swat. You asked me what I suggest white liberals stop doing, I told you. Dispense with them if you like, but they're no less true just because "nobody mentioned them," or because you think they're "colorful pinatas."

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-12-03T17:15:22-06:00

ID

69176

Comment

1. Do you or do you not support the Northside Sun's reporting of race in crime stories? 2. Do you or do you not support the reporting of race in the story about Coach Croom? I do.

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-12-03T17:20:03-06:00

ID

69177

Comment

...if these are "the cause of black crime," (singular form of "cause" noted) then what is the cause or causes white crime? The same issues? Yes. Are the causes of white crime equally simple? Yes.

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-12-03T17:21:53-06:00

ID

69178

Comment

Greg, You are the one that is faulty. Read my posts again, Note I said if Bill Gates came here and opened up a mini Microsoft and trained new employees like companies so often do, then that will help. You do not have to have a college degree to fix on cars, houses, or computers. Some of the smartest computer people do not even go to school. Remember Bill Gates himself dropped out of school. Thus my point is very sound. Most comapnies train new employees regardless of their background anyway. At first I thought you were just misled, now I am wondering is there any help in changing your biased opinions?

Author

Fry

Date

2003-12-03T17:35:12-06:00

ID

69179

Comment

Wow, so Ken Lay and Bernie Ebbers come from broken homes? Who knew?

Author

Kate

Date

2003-12-03T17:42:20-06:00

ID

69180

Comment

Kate Greg knows or at least he knows the half truths that he is saying....LOL

Author

Fry

Date

2003-12-03T17:49:51-06:00

ID

69181

Comment

Brian, I would argue that the best bet would be to never try to change anyone's opinions but instead learn to find common ground in ideas. Through sharing and exposure, change is inevitable on many levels. As for the Bill Gates situation, I would argue that this is a poor example or it could explain why Micro$oft's OS is so flawed. ;-) Microsoft does not "fix" computers (that's an entirely different blog in and of itself) but develops software for secure(?), often encrypted networks and computers. You'd be better off using BellSouth, AT&T, Nissan, Tyson, etc as examples since they are focused on sales, customer service and/or assembly-line type work. These are "skills" that can be trained in relatively short time rather than complex and commonly mathematically challenging professions (Micro$oft programmer) that take years upon years to learn. Still, I would also argue that plenty of these jobs already exist. For instance, I work in a tech call center that is staffed as predominently black. There are many already taking advantage of these types of places and there are many places similar in nature hiring at this moment from my understanding. So, I would agree with both you and Greg. Jobs are definitely good in reducing property crimes and petty crimes overall. As well, it is the responsibility of the communities to mobilize and take advantage of those jobs. In turn, more jobs will probably be created and a better marketplace would exist.

Author

Knol Aust

Date

2003-12-03T17:52:05-06:00

ID

69182

Comment

Kate: I think the parts of the note Greg posted that would apply to your perceptions of Lay and Ebbers would be the parts about "teaching right and wrong" and "not committing crimes", rather than the presence of a broken home. Unless you were being ironic just to poke a hole in Greg's argument? WOuldn't it solve a lot of problems if we did all we could as a society (and government, if you lean towards government intervention in that sort of thing) to make sure that all children grow up in a stable, two-parent home where such concepts are taught as he describes in point #2?

Author

BEcky

Date

2003-12-03T18:10:42-06:00

ID

69183

Comment

Becky, my point is that the 'cause' of crime is not 'lack of stable homes'. That's one of many contributing factors. His argument's overly simplistic. Actually, I don't really care if children are raised in 2 parent homes. Yes, they need stable homes where they are taught right from wrong, along with a dash of compassion, by whoever in their lives can provide that.

Author

Kate

Date

2003-12-03T18:20:18-06:00

ID

69184

Comment

VBELL, whomever you are. Your posts was very comical and you should do comics. I grew up playing the dozens and my friend your comments fall into the category oh where I would say "I read worse written by better". I am not asking you to side with me. However, I am asking that you accept and embrace truthful facts which obviously you and Greg are not capable of. I think my admiration for Donna and her admiration for me exists because both of us accept the truth and ignore politics and biased individuals. But VBELL, may God bless you my friend. P. S. Can we be friends???LOL

Author

Fry

Date

2003-12-03T19:06:48-06:00

ID

69185

Comment

Fry, I have been involved in software development as an employee, company owner, and consultant for 13 years. I can tell you without fear of contradiction that software developers - Microsoft included - expect new employees to arrive with a high degree of skill. Continuing education is not uncommon, but it's simply not the case that someone with little or no experience in software development can expect to hire on at a Microsoft and be trained like auto workers are. And besides, have you been inside a software development company lately? There aren't very many black faces, and it's not because the people doing the hiring are racists. Software development is considerably more liberal a field politically than American industry as a whole. The reason is that there simply aren't many blacks who have the skills necessary to be good hires. So while it's true that there are a lot of college dropouts in the field in general, including at its highest levels (not just Gates, but Jobs too, and I believe Larry Ellison as well), you're talking about guys who are by definition extremely, extremely rare. Saying that because guys like that made it big, having an uneducated pool of labor shouldn't be a problem, commits the exact same fallacy as saying that because Allen Iverson and 50-Cent made it big, every kid on the street can set his sights on a pro hoops or rap career, and leave crime behind. It just ain't gonna happen. Plus, the bigger problem in the black community is not preventing college dropouts, but preventing high school and junior-high dropouts. This opinion is not the result of bias; it's fact. It can be categorized variously as "unrepresentative sample," where the number of examples you cite is too small to be considered representative; "fallacy of composition," in which you assume that because a few members of a group exhibit certain attributes, that all the members do; or "hasty generalization," where the size of your sample is too small to support your conclusion. Google "logical fallacies" and you'll find plenty of explanation. I'm not trying to body-slam you, Brian - but I think if you sharpened your logical skills you'd really be a force to be reckoned with.

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-12-03T19:59:17-06:00

ID

69186

Comment

Kate, my point is that the 'cause' of crime is not 'lack of stable homes'. That's one of many contributing factors. His argument's overly simplistic. You've been reading my posts for a couple of weeks now, and I think it's fair to say I have a grasp of complexity. If you really think what I've been saying is that single-parent homes are THE cause of crime in the black community, then you need to be careful about whom you characterize as simplistic. Actually, I don't really care if children are raised in 2 parent homes. Yes, they need stable homes where they are taught right from wrong, along with a dash of compassion, by whoever in their lives can provide that. You may not care, but the fact don't lie. Children from stable two-parent homes do staggeringly better in school than children from single-parent homes. I'm not trying to turn this into a pulpit for a hetero marriage amendment (e.g., I'd much rather see a child with two gay or lesbian parents, than a child with either a single mother or a single father), but if you want to make the biggest improvement in crime in the black community by doing ONE thing, it would be to increase the number of two-parent homes.

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-12-03T20:09:40-06:00

ID

69187

Comment

I wrote: ...if these are "the cause of black crime," (singular form of "cause" noted) then what is the cause or causes white crime? The same issues? Greg wrote: Yes. I wrote: Are the causes of white crime equally simple? Greg wrote: Yes. Now, I don't agree with your assertion that home-life and parenting are the sole root cause of crime -- I think, instead, you've touched on some symptoms. But, let that stand for a moment. If the causes of the "white" and "black" crime are identical and relatively simple to pinpoint then, it occurs to me, that: (1) white people and black people can help each other solve those problems. Help is not a seven-letter word. (Hint: rhymes with 'fiberal'.) and (2) identifying something as "black crime" does nothing to solve it. [more]

Author

Todd Stauffer

Date

2003-12-03T20:40:12-06:00

ID

69188

Comment

My point is to show that these things need to be tackled as a community -- together -- black and white and others. We all live here (or close to here) together. We all need Jackson to thrive if we're going to successfully create an environment that allows us to mount our individual pursuits of happiness. How do we do that? I suggest we do it scientifically. Use reasonable hypotheses, scientific measurements and even experiments to find root causes and their solutions. Brian pointed to lack of economic opportunity as a root cause -- identify the problem; Knol tweaked his example and came up with an hypothesis -- maybe those without the education to be programmers could work in tech support centers. Greg, in his own way, seems to be testing the hypothesis. And so on. The only thing that doesn't leave room for is blame. Yes, individual criminals should be caught and tried and punished and we should have a reasonable expectation that the criminal justice system works. But you can't blame particular racial groups for the problem. It's not a "black" or a "white" problem -- it's our problem.

Author

Todd Stauffer

Date

2003-12-03T20:44:36-06:00

ID

69189

Comment

Two notes about fallacies. First: Greg wrote: ...It can be categorized variously as "unrepresentative sample," where the number of examples you cite is too small to be considered representative; "fallacy of composition," in which you assume that because a few members of a group exhibit certain attributes, that all the members do; or "hasty generalization," where the size of your sample is too small to support your conclusion. Google "logical fallacies" and you'll find plenty of explanation. Greg, I think you just made my case as to why you shouldn't including the race in newspaper crime blotter stories if your desire is to get a reasonable sense of who is commiting crimes in a given region. Aggregating statistics is a much better approach. Include the race only when it's relevant, as in for Crime Watch purposes.

Author

Todd Stauffer

Date

2003-12-03T20:52:59-06:00

ID

69190

Comment

Second: There's a concept in conflict resolution that you won't find in your logic textbooks called "listening to refute." This is when you listen (or read) the words of another with your primary (or singular) goal being to find ways to refute what that person says. I submit that when we try not to do that -- when, instead, we listen to incorporate and occasionally broaden our own understanding using that of others -- that's when we learn more and when we waste the least amount of each other's time. Of course, we may not all have the same goals on this board, but listening (reading) to incorporate instead of listening (reading) to refute would probably help the tone a bit. And now...I need to figure out why the #@$& router won't let more than a few hundred words through at a time!

Author

Todd Stauffer

Date

2003-12-03T20:56:48-06:00

ID

69191

Comment

Todd, Glad you reminded me about how the Sun decides which crime stories to print. I asked the girl who does the stories how they decide, and here's what she said: As I suspected, there's a simple scale they use. At the top is murder, followed by rape, strong-armed robbery, aggravated assault, armed robbery, simple assault, robbery, burglary, and car theft. The crimes that are reported on the Sun's front page are the most serious crimes that have been committed in Precinct 4 in the preceding week. So, when you say: Wouldn't it be a flaw in logic to then assume that in the anecdotal reporting of the race of those involved in property crime -- which is actually only a small blot of Sun coverage compared to its coverage of the accomplishments of school-aged children -- is somehow adding to our understanding of who is commiting crimes in Northeast Jackson and why? ...you're mistaken. Whereas there is a method to the way in which crimes are reported, as I described above, the way kids get their pictures into the Sun is because their parents send them in, along with a caption. You send in a picture of your kid's soccer team, it gets in the paper. You don't, it doesn't. But as to the question of whether the crime stories in the Sun are in any way a scientific sampling, the answer is unambiguously "yes": They are the most serious crimes, on a widely-accepted scale, committed in Precinct 4 every week.

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-12-03T21:14:53-06:00

ID

69192

Comment

BTW, Are you sure it's a router problem? Have you checked all the settings in the blog's comments section?

Author

Greg Griffith

Date

2003-12-03T21:16:10-06:00

ID

69193

Comment

Greg and Knol, The microsoft example was just that an example to try to get you to understand possible solutions to the problems. There is no guarantee that my example would solve all the problems. However, I can assure you that it will help out the problem in a major way. I just really wish I can take the two of you with me and talk to some young people and see is the situation like you imagine it to be or is the situation far more complex than you ever perceived. How about one of these days very soon we gather and go on a learning experience together because people often have views about something that they really know very little about. Yet, when they are up close and personal they can develop an accurate idea of the situation. So, I challenge the 2 of you to stop talking and go with me on a mini tour/learning opportunity. So do u 2 accept or not????????????

Author

Fry

Date

2003-12-04T02:29:49-06:00

ID

69194

Comment

Greg, I know you're not stupid. You just pretend to be. You wrote: "Realize that the cause of black crime is not slavery, or lynchings, or Jim Crow, but the absence of strong two-parent homes in which the differences between right and wrong are taught and enforced throughout a child's life." Sounds pretty simplistic to me. If you don't mean it, don't write it. And if you think that all criminals come from homes where they aren't 'taught right from wrong', you're sadly mistaked. As my own family can attest. Also, I did not say that 2 parent homes weren't superior to single parent ones. All I said that was that stability and guidance and so forth should be provided by whoever in a child's life can provide it, whether that is grandparents, aunts, siblings, parents, etc. My personal perception is that when we talk about "2 parent homes" we're diverting attention from the real goal, which is stability and so forth.

Author

Kate

Date

2003-12-04T09:37:00-06:00

ID

69195

Comment

Brian, I am amazed! Your manner of showing me the "problem" is rather insulting. You know nothing of me, my circles, the people I interact with or the experiences of my life or those connected to it. Talk about an assumption not worthy of addressing. But I will... I have interacted with school children of all ages and spoken with them about their families, politics, religion, race and their environment (white/black/yellow/red/rich/poor/middle class)! I know a myriad of people that have experienced discrimination in many forms from race to sexual orientation to sex to religion (including myself on EVERY form listed and often a combination of all). I know plenty of poverty-ridden people of the white, yellow, red and black persuasion; many of them are relatives, friends of relatives, neighbors and childhood friends. I know single moms and single dads encompassing the financial gamut rearing their children responsibly and exposing them to other cultures and ideas (of every persuasion) for their own benefit and the children's regardless of how tough life has been. I know children that have been and are in the foster system and suffered its weaknesses only to be productive and "well adjusted" as well as the opposite. I know people from "broken homes"... from abusive families... who have been gay bashed (including myself)... who have been attacked for color, gender, relgion (including myself)... I know people that have been the victim and/or the victimizer. People who have been raped. People who are addicted to many things including sheep-like thought, drugs, whining, television, food, sex, alcohol, arguing, physically harming others, physically harming themselves, and the list goes on... I'm probably not as narrow as you imagine and have been exposed to more than I myself would like to believe.

Author

Knol Aust

Date

2003-12-04T13:08:53-06:00

ID

69196

Comment

[more...] The tour you've suggested is indicative of a one-sided story without the option of a parallel reality or a hundred other stories that differ and counter. While many of your points are valid, they lack the ability to encompass the whole reality of the situation just as you and others have indicated of Greg's points. The fact is, I see alot of polarized thoughts on this board (as discussed in another blog) and am curious how there can not be multiple methods for "fixing" the problem... After all, as stated, it takes a village but everyone in the village will not necessarily have the same tools, methods, beliefs or means to solve the problem. The point, overall, is that everyone attempts to solve the problem in their own productive manner. Seems since this problem is growing it would make sense to take any opinion seriously. All I can say at this point is Spike Lee recently encouraged the black community at a Brown University speech to stop supporting gangsta rap and other media that degrade the community and to accept responsibility for negative consumerism. I think he had a point. It DOES come down to responsibility especially by the community being affected especially when it comes to consumerism and action. As a gay man, I understand that concept (responsibility). As many heteros as possible can reach out to the gay community to stop AIDS but until the younger gay community begins to (again) accept responsibility for its actions, it won't matter... Until then, nothing will change and the problems will persist if not increase in proportion.... Does not matter if our community has been sexually repressed and that many kids come from from broken homes, abusive fathers and many sexually abused. Get help and be responsible is the method our community has been prescribed to "fix" the cracks in our communities foundation by gay and straight advocates alike. Our community understands this and has... It's the younger generation (the growing new AIDS cases in the gay community) that doesn't. It is up to the elders in the community to pass the torch of information and responsibility down otherwise history will continue to repeat itself, as it is. Ultimately, without responsibility by the community, no outreach or "equal economics" will matter. Ask any addict about outreach and they will confirm...

Author

Knol Aust

Date

2003-12-04T13:09:12-06:00

ID

69197

Comment

To my own statements, I would like to edit the word "insulted" with aghast... I'm moreso surprised that you feel you could show me something that would surprise me and how it appears you perceive me as narrow and unenlightened in comparison to yourself.

Author

Knol Aust

Date

2003-12-04T13:27:11-06:00