Jackson Free Press

Lately, every time some politician is talking about education on the TV, on radio or in the newspaper, they're talking about testing. "Accountability." They act like standardized test scores are the only thing important about education. But we need to seriously question that logic. This looks like another case where the people who are making the decisions are not actually the ones doing the work.

What if I do great work in school, but I just do not do well on tests? Does that mean I am not learning at a high rate, or does it mean that … I just do not do well on tests? I have no problems with traditions that lead to positive and meaningful outcomes and exist for a beneficial reason. But I do have problems with traditions that are around just because that is the way we have always done it. A wise man said progress requires change. Not simply alteration; real change.

A report from the Department of Education published in September basically proved that one cannot buy knowledge. The United States spends more public and private money on education than any other nation in the world, but our high school graduation rates are well below the world's average. Thus, as Education Secretary Rod Paige stated, "The United States remains mired in internal education politics and mediocrity." I agree 110 percent. But I disagree with his solution—120 percent.

Close your eyes and try to think hard about all of the things that you were taught in school. OK, now open them and ask yourself how much of it is useful? For example, I had to learn what number each president was. Yet, when is the last time a job application or interview for something other than a history teacher position required knowing that Coolidge was our 30th president?

The Department of Education is missing two very important facts: 1) The topics that are being taught in schools need to be altered. 2) The way the information and skills are taught needs to be changed. Who wants to sit and listen to someone talk/lecture for 55 minutes?

Testing, testing, testing—sure, I understand the value of testing. But I question the validity of the results. When I was in school, we had to take a state test and federal test and some other test that I cannot remember. Most of my peers shared the same plan: go in and write c, a, d, b and then go to sleep. Who cared? So what, as long as I passed my nine weeks' exam and moved onto the next grade? Yet, schools are now given grades—and funding is allocated—based on test scores. Not on how well rounded kids are or how much support they get in their neighborhood or how hard they work. Just whether or not they filled in the correct oval.

This is ridiculous. I only memorized the stuff they taught for tests in order to pass the tests, even while I was actually learning things that would benefit me later on in life like English, math and social studies. While my teacher at school spent countless days teaching me things that to this day I have never used, they did not teach me how to fill out a job application, how to fill out my income tax papers, or how to make five dollars last for a week.

When I was broke, I often reflected back on the things that I learned in school. The most important aspect of the human element was not taught. That element was survival. No subject taught me how to survive, nor did they teach me what to do if my lights get cut off, my family gets evicted from the place that we call home because my mom got laid off her job and we have no food in the refrigerator, or what to do if my water gets cut off and I cannot take a bath or drink any water. We wonder why these kids sleep in class and do not pay attention. We wonder why these kids try to act like adults. And we wonder why our poverty level is so high.

When are we going to stop wondering? Things will change when the people in a position to make decisions can relate or identify with the subjects at hand. Often, the individuals that are in decision-making positions are way out of touch with these kids' reality, and that it is shameful. To lead an army you should at one point and time have at least been a soldier.

Sure, college and graduate studies can be a good thing. But unless you go into the low-income neighborhoods and aid those who needed help, you won't know anything how important survival is to these kids. How their lives can be about what to wear, or what to say in the company of different types of people.

We've focused too much on attention deficit disorder. Often, I come across a kid that is diagnosed with ADD. When I do, I use my simple personal test. I turn on the CD player and just talk to the kid. After 50 minutes of listening to the 50 Cent CD, I realize that this young person has just recited each and every word of every song. If that kid has the ability to learn all of those songs, he or she can learn that schoolwork.

If you want real change in the schools, then you need to remove the politics and place the soldiers in charge of the army. My uncle taught me at a young age that who I know can get me in the door, but what I know will keep me there.
Brian Fry, 27, works with young people in Jackson.

Previous Commentsshow

While I attended public high school, we did create our own resumes, completed tax forms and actually did faux job interviews. This was well over 13 years ago in a rural high school in Raymond. Most of it we did in Social Studies or English. So, I would argue one of the major problems facing the educational system is teacher motivation as well as the system overall.

Knol Aust

Nov 26 2003

I think your experience is the exception, Knol. Very little of what I learned in school I find useful today. The two big exceptions are algebra and writing, which I use every day. But I didn't learn algebra until the ninth grade and only took it for one year. English/writing I tool all four years of high school. But just imagine if I learned equally important and applicable things in every class every year I was in school. Where would we be as a society if we taught all our children in such a way?

Nia

Nov 26 2003

I guess it's a matter of opinion. I consider Western Civ. very fundamental in undertanding the roots of our American politics and government. As well, American history (as white as it tends to be) is also key to learning the roots of how/why we are where we are. As well, my county/public high school experience exposed me to computer classes, creative writing classes, shop classes, "home ec" classes, and a plethora of other classes. These classes are still there and still exist. So, I would beg that the bigger problem is less "school politics" and more social/community/parental politics and drama. Last I heard, school was for reading, writing and math... While the social experiment is also great for kids, it bothers me that we as a society are growing to expect schools to replace parents and the tribe/community's role in rearing/teaching a child. I guess we've simply left that aspect up to 50 Cent and the rest of MTVs hooligans.

Knol Aust

Nov 26 2003

It's important to understand that in today's public schools, under No Child Left Behind, that a child can't really suck at one subject and still be able to graduate from high school. For instance, say, had George W. Bush been bad at, say, history or math and unable to pass the subject-area tests, he could not have graduated from high school, say, had be gone to a public school. He could, of course, graduate from a private school because they do not face the same regulations (although vouchers, should they come, could change the face of "private" schools forever, constitutionally. But that's another topic). The point is that, as currently administered, federal education laws are going to perpetuate several serious educational gaps; should they work as they're designed to, public school students could end up a lot more educated about certain subjects than private school or richer kids. At the same time, though, many public school kids who can't make the cut, or pass the tests to graduate (regardless of grades), will continue to drop out. Meantime, teachers must, must teach to these tests to try to make sure that their students graduate, and to ensure that their schools stay open, and to ensure that they keep their jobs. (And they're facing similar high-stakes tests themselves.) That doesn't leave a lot of time for creative teaching for kids who perhaps learn different ways; to help a kid focus on really playing to his skills, despite deficiency in, say, math or writing; or for teaching life skills that are so desperately needed by certain kids. These days, it's all about the tests. There is some good in testing, of course, but politics has forced this game to go way too far, and so few people really understand the latest unfunded federal education mandates that they think it's a real boost to education. Part of the small print is that certain schools and districts will see higher scores in part because so many kids who can't cut it *even in one subject* will drop out. Then one should turn their attention to the crime rate. It's really hard to argue that you're serious about having safer communities if you don't pay any attention to what causes young people to drop out of school. This is serious business, and not just for parents of kids in the public schools.

ladd

Nov 26 2003

It's also important to point out that the testing issue won't just affect young blacks. I knew plenty of young, white guys with Confederate flags in their pick-up trucks, to use current lingo, who would not have passed these tests to graduate, or who weren't learning life skills at home (like the need for a job beyond driving a pulpwood truck). And they had their music "hooligans," too; they just didn't look like 50 Cent. Knol, I would say that schools should not play the whole role that some folks call a "social experiment," but they certainly are part of that village/community you talk aboutóand they need to do what they can to reach all of these young people who come from with the help of communities and parents. Districts such as JPS are doing everything they can to reach out to parents and get them involved. When I was back at Neshoba Central, I don't remember them doing a damned thing to reach out to my parents, other than try to get them to sell hotdogs during football games. I'm lost in my point here, but I'd probably say that public education isn't a "social experiment" vs. the rest of us game (not that you're saying that, but many do). It's a vital part of our communities, and what happens there (or doesn't) affects everyone of us, whether we like it or not.

ladd

Nov 26 2003

Knol, I agree with you in principle. What I meant was that not eveyone has the kind of educational experience you had. For example, we didn't have Western Civilization in my high school. And I only had one year of history, during which I learned about the pilgrims and the Civil War and a few things in between. But I learned nothing about history after Reconstruction and I learned nothing about other countries or world history. Context was missing. And I would argue that a "whites only" version of history is not history but propaganda. Despite this seriously flawed education, I performed excellently on standardized tests, hence my acceptance into two Ivy League colleges. However, when I arrived on campus at the school of my choice, I was ill-prepared for the rigor of serious study because I'd never had to do any "real" work. All I'd been requred to do before was pass the tests. Had it not been for what I learned at home from my parents in the way of critical thinking and a passion for reading, I don't think I ever would have graduated from college or been successful in my working life. 'Cause I damn sure didn't learn how to do either of those things in school. And Donna's right: This isn't just going to affect black kids. It's going to adversely affect every child who doesn't have parents who can dedicate several hours a day to tutoring and coaching their kids. And hell, that's most kids.

Nia

Nov 26 2003

KNOL, Your high school is a huge exception. You are very fortunate. However, many of us are not. During the summer, an article was in the business section of a newspaper had employers inform the public about just how hard it is to find and hire decent employees. In the article employers were saying that several candidates did not know how to feel out an application or what to do or say during an interview. And they are 100 percent correct. For instance I took a mock application to about 100 16-18 year olds and had them to feel it out. Out of that 100 only 1 application was close to being correct. So like I said instead of teaching them things that are useless later on in life why not teach them things that are relevant. Continued down below.....

Fry

Nov 26 2003

KNOL, Also, just think for a second here. If so many of us were taught how to do our own taxes (which every citizen will have to do at one point and time) how come there are so many tax services on every corner during tax season? Evidently, there are alot of people who are not 100% certain about how to do their own taxes and I am one of them. Then, look at the applications that ask you personality questions like: do you think most people steal, do u like to work alone or in a group, and etc. Now, you are instructed to answer each question truthfully, yet if your opinion is most people do steal (Worldcom, Enron, Martha Stewart) the company views that answer as saying that you will steal. Thus, you did not pass the test. Now, in what school do they tell kids that? But applications like that are becoming more and popular. So think about that for a minute. Also............

Fry

Nov 26 2003

KNOL, To refer to 50 Cent as a hooligan, why would you do and say that? Because he speaks about material things, women, and partying. Sure not all of his messages are positive, but all of them are not negative either. See, your view is shared by alot of suits that make decisions and they are so far off base that it is silly. Let me explain for a minute. 50 Cent is inspirational to many youth because: he turned a negative into a positive (stop selling drugs and start rapping), he is real ( he does not just talk about the good he also talks about the bad), he is his own person (he does not change who is no matter what), and lastly he gives them hope to say if he made it then they can too. So often, we kill each others' dream by telling each other the odds and how hard it is. That is fine but also tell each other the necessary steps required to reach their goal regardless of how hard it may seem. So what the statistics say 1 out of 125,000, there is not anything that says I cannot be that one is it????

Fry

Nov 26 2003

Good points, Brian. I would add that what is more important than teaching someone how to fill out an application is teaching critical thinking. If you have that skill, it can be applied in every aspect of your life and in every field of study. Critical thinking and reading skills afford you the ability to figure out how to file your taxes or properly fill out job appliations.

Nia

Nov 26 2003

I agree with Brian that writing off rap artists so easily is a mistake. There is much more going on here than you see on MTV. Now, I'm not saying they shouldn't be open to criticism -- of course they should -- but simply calling them "hooligans" and dismissing them doesn't make sense, either. The same, of course, goes for the (white and black) rock stars of the past that scared people so badly because they were capturing, for better or worse, what young people were thinking about. Just as with rock-n-roll, there's so much to be learned from the hip-hop culture if we don't just write it off. Sure, they're rapping about harsher subjects and using harsher language, but if society want to change that, society had better start paying attention to why that is the world these artists are reflecting.

ladd

Nov 26 2003

Good point on critical thinking and reasoning, Nia. Of course, that goes back to the subjects like algebra that many young people don't understand why they need. The fact is: a well-rounded education and thinking skills are what's vital. You can figure the job application out if you know how to think. They do need their brains challenged -- I wish logic courses were required in high schools, for instance -- but I do have a problem with the federal government saying they can't graduate if they're not good enough at Algebra. And with the current frenzied level of testing, there still isn't enough time to help kids who need more remedial help in certain subjects, or learning certain life skills. THEY can't help it if they're behind the starting line; that is affected by myriad factors from their parents' individual idiocy to the their community's history of oppression to poverty levels. A balanced approach is needed, and that we're not getting it right now with testing mania. In fact, as currently done, the kids that need the most help getting up to par get it less; the schools that do the best on tests are the ones rewarded with financial and other benefits. Truly bizarre.

ladd

Nov 26 2003

BTW, Russell Simmons makes an interesting point in our interview with him this week. If someone from the "inner city" can't make money somehow, how can they help their communities? And if they're limited in the ways that they can truly accumulate wealth (or think they are; "perception," you know), then they are going to do it the ways that they can. Right now, unless they're a superstar athlete, that means by selling hip-hop culture. It's important to note that many rappers (certainly not all) are trying to use hip-hop to do good, although that part is not always chronicled by the media. The mainstream media world certainly wants to sell hip-hop, but they're prefer to ignore the political and social sides of it all, and just market the "gangsta" thing. It's not wrong to say that many of these young men (and women) are trying to maneuver two worlds, and it's not an easy place to be. Mind you, I'm not defending the idiots among the rappers; I'm just saying they're not all one big monolith. That word again. ;-)

ladd

Nov 26 2003

When I first heard about 50 cent, I wrote him off as just another crooklyn from Queens with nothing but bad things to say about women, black women in particular. Then I took some good advice from my teenage nephew and listened to the CD. I was hooked after one run through. I ran to Tower Records, with my nephew and daughter in tow, and bought the CD. His gifted lyricism I found amazingly similar to the poetry of Martin Carter, one of my favorite poets. 50 is a perfect example of what we were discussing on another thread (I think it was the why young people don't vote thread) about keeping things real and admitting your faults and failures.

Nia

Nov 26 2003

Nia, I am very impressed by both your points as well as your ability to be openminded. Yet, it is very important for all of us to try to understand one another instead of just looking at the mere outer appearance. Alot of people look at hip hop and its culture and instantly discredit its influence. But they better realize that it is the number 1 music of choice by youth. What got me is that 75 percent of those who buy it are not the inner city kids but surburban America. So, they better really wake up and get with the program and try to learn instead of ignoring the facts. But the music also teaches about facts, reality , and social issues. I just wish both schools and politicians would take a more realistic approach. Just wait until my next article about "Youth and Sex" comes out. You think some things are surprising, wait until you hear how they feel about sex and etc; But anyway, I am very impressed by you Nia....

Fry

Nov 26 2003

Donna, As usual your points are very strong and to the point. I just wish we had an opportunity to have a town meeting and talk about these issues and others' like it. Donna, what do you think about bringing some of these issues up and infront of the people; sort of like an open forum town meeting??? I think it would be a huge hit. I really think people want to know the answers to some of their questions but really has no one that will give them an honest answer. I have been amazed by how many people stop me to show support, challenge my points or just debate the issues. Learning is fun...

Fry

Nov 26 2003

My point on the topic of "MTV's hooligans" was that it is apparant that many parent's have declined the role of mother/father figure and simply leave their children to the TV Nation for their babysitting needs. It had nothing specifically to do with 50 Cent, hence the "and MTV's other hooligans." It was more of a bash on MTV and "poor parenting."

Knol Aust

Nov 26 2003

KNOL, Ok, I am cool with that. Your points are well made and understood. Keep writing....

Fry

Nov 26 2003

"Youth and Sex"? I hadn't heard about *that* one, yet, Brian. ;-) But I look forward to seeing it. Brian, funny you should mention town hall meetings. Todd and I have been talking about starting a series of community discussions to bring together diverse (race, age, background) people to talk about important community issues. Just the other night I was talking to a group of hip-hop musicians from JSU about doing this, and they were really excited about it. I hope to start this early in the year, perhaps holding one panel a month and promoting it through the paper, radio, etc. I just need to line up a central location (Smith Robertson?) and, hopefully, a person here to help organize them. Perhaps you would be interested in helping? Also, I'd considered asking Kate if she'd be willing to help do this as well. (Not to put you on the spot, Kate.) I'd love to hear more ideas for the panels, including possible topics and so on. I have several ideas already, but I know the list isn't complete. So bring it on, y'all. As for 50 Cent, I haven't listened to his music much other than in the background; it sounds like one we should pick up for that road trip that we're trying to leave on, and really listen to it. Thanks for the recommendation, Nia and Brian. And, Knol, I will certainly agree that MTV does not take the place of good parenting. ;-) Neither does any television. Cheers to you all, and have a lovely Thanksgiving. I'll be checking in here and there along the way.

ladd

Nov 26 2003

To me, I'd say that making "useless subjects" interesting is more a matter of marketing the purpose of the class to the students. On the other hand, there's a lot of things in school that you may not find useful at the time, but end up appreciative of later. Furthermore, there's lots of things in every subject someone is simply expected to know, if nothing else to keep you from being taken in by hucksters of every stripe imaginable. More often, it's because that knowledge could well give you a foundation on which to build more knowledge about a subject you may later find interesting. For example, take my Literature classes, for example. During most of my years in school, I was impossible for me to care less about it. Then, because of my interests in history and geography, I decided to read a James Mitchner book. In one of his books, one of his characters said something to the effect that a great school is not a great school because of what they learn in their field but because of the solid instruction they've had in the meaning of life. Also, that universities that neglect the arts and humanities (which I hear a lot of students complain about taking) are little more than glorified trade schools. This one passage pretty much answered my question about "What point is there in studying literature?". If my teachers had said this one thing straight out on the first day of class, I would have probably studied Literature and English more seriously, since I would have been eagerly anticipating the next moment I would have discovered useful lessons.

Philip

Nov 26 2003

Philip, Please explain to me the relevance of teaching Shakespeare. None of my classmates understood it at the beginning or the end and we never really understood why our teacher spent weeks teaching it to us? Thanks ahead of time.

Fry

Nov 26 2003

Why Shakespeare Is STill Relevant--Short Version: Macbeth--Guy with power wants more and kills to get it. Useful in understanding a variety of sociopaths from Saddam Hussein to Ken Lay. Romeo and Juliet--any teenaged kid who's dated someone their parents didn't like gets this one. Othello--Speaks volumes about the difficulties of interracial marriages and reminds kids that institutionalized racism has been around for a long, long time. Julius Ceasar--A ruler becomes arrogant and his best friend believes he has to kill him to save the country. Discussion on the morality of political assasination and whether you should put your country above your own life or your friendships. Hamlet--the original Goth--always wore black, wanted to kill the 'rents, and loved messing with people's minds. Read him just for fun! Come on--if you read up on him, Shakespeare was the 50 Cent of his day. The Puritans banned him and his acting from London, and he built a place out in the 'burbs and packed 'em in. Used his era's cuss words and street slang in his writing. More killings than The Fast and the Furious and more gay jokes than Will and Grace.

Becky

Nov 26 2003

Ok, Becky, You hit me where it counts on that point. Thanks for the insight. I honestly feel that maybe if they translate the language to modern english instead of old english more people will understand it and more people will like it. But Great analogy Becky. I am feeling your illustrations. Thanks

Fry

Nov 27 2003

Thanks, Brian. I appreciate the props. :-) Re Shakespeare: I LOVE, LOVE Shakespeare. I don't think there's anything he wrote that isn't relavant to today's politiking. My favorite, Macbeth, speaks volumes about the the power mongerers of the world. "Timeless his work is." --Yoda

Nia

Nov 28 2003

Fry, The best antidote to the Elizabethan English is to see it performed rather than just reading it. If the AL Shakespeare Company comes through, go watch it. A lot of companies do update the settings--I saw Othello updated to the Jazz Age one time. Priceless. Videotapes are good too if you can find good productions.

Becky

Nov 30 2003

Fry, But you gotta try out the Shizzolator!

Greg Griffith

Nov 30 2003

I am very impressed with the readers of JFP because sure we do not all agree but everyone makes their case and we move on. Certainly, I think we have all learned a thing a two about things we were unsure of or just did not know. Maybe we even educated one another to a degree. Thanks for the update though. I have no problem with Shakespeare, I just wish it was taught better and compared to current issues when it is taught instead of just saying you have to learn this. But be honest and think about the things that we were taught in school. How much of it s truly relevant?

Fry

Nov 30 2003

The bigger problem, I think, is not that we're taught irrelevant things, but that the method of teaching preferred in the US is memoriazation of facts as opposed to critical thinking and context, both largely lacking in the American educational system. When you memorize facts, who gets to decide which facts are memorized and which aren't? Who gets to decide what's a fact and what isn't? Most of what I learned in school was irrelevant because it lacked context and therefore had little, if any, application to the real world.

Nia

Dec 1 2003

There was a great article in Harper's a few months ago, which said that public education in the US was designed to produce a class educated enough to be good, prosperous consumers. At the same time, it was geared towards teaching children to automatically respect authority, and to value rote memorization over critical thinking - since that would make us easier to control. I have no idea of the truth of those statements, but it would be fun to go back and research the origins of public education.

Kate

Dec 1 2003

Nia, that is my point exactly. Sure several things that are taught can allow you to be the winner of Jeopardy, but how many of us rely on Jeopardy to pay our bills. Thus, in reference to the things that are taught and how they enable us in the real world, there is barely a correlation. This is what upsets me the most right now. Those damn exit exams. To hear a kid's voice (in college) after they did not pass one is saddening. For instance a kid can work hard from August until December and have a B average. Then they take the exit exam and do not pass, they do not move on. How can you tell a kid that hard work pays off when after 4 months of hard work they have 1 bad day on a test, but that tests is more important than the previous 4 months os hard work. Someone please explain that one to me.

Fry

Dec 1 2003

I'm not sure how I feel about exit exams. In principle, I have no problem with them. Practice is another matter. Students should have unlimited opportunities to take and pass the test. And anyone with a B average should be able to pass a reasonable exit exam. This begs two obvious questions though: Is the exam reasonable? Did the student earn the B average? I think we have "no" answers to both of those questions working decidedly against us in American education. Many students graduate with A averages but are not well educated because they lack critical thinking skills. I believe that students who can't do basic algebra or lack an introduction to major literary works don't deserve a B average or admission into college. These very basic thinking skills should be requirements for getting into college. It's a matter of raising the bar for everyone to create a more educated, more discerning citizen, as opposed to the educated consumers Kate mentioned. Students who can't pass these requirements should consider community college or other types of preparatory education before 4-year college. And since not everyone needs to go to Yale and become president of EvilCorporateEmpire.com, some students with aptitudes in nonacademic subjects should be "college-educated" in other areas. There should be colleges for auto mechanics, who deserve to be well-paid. HOWEVER, I do believe that everyone should be taught these skills and at much earlier stages in the educational process than we currently teach them. There's no reason why kids can't start learning algebra in the fifth or sixth grade, or even earlier. They have all the skills necessary by then to grasp the concepts. Algebra is largely conceptual. Obviously, you're unlikely to get the right answer if you can't multiply and divide, but grasping the concepts is a key to developing critical thinking. Kate, I'd love to read that article.

Nia

Dec 1 2003

I would, too. I agree with you, Nia, but the problem is that so many kids are being set up for failure with these high-stakes exit tests. No Child Left Behind is very misunderstood; there's a pretty good summary of it, including an expose of the "Texas Miracle," in Molly Ivins' new book, which we listened to on tape on the way back from NY. I recommend it.

ladd

Dec 3 2003

Nia, Let me break down the exit examslike this and see if you can reach a conclusion how you feel about them. A child works hard for 4 months. Goes to class, tutoring and does extra work to improve their grade. Then they reach the point that their grade is a 3.0 or even a 4.0 and one day like a hurricane, tornado, or fire what they have worked so hard for during the past 4 months. it is all taken away. No ay you should the result of one test taken during one day outweigh the work, time, and effort of 4 months. That completely sends the wrong message. That is just like you worked your tail off to move up at your job for 4 months and there is another person who is a slacker and barely does anything but the one day they ask you 2 to take a test to determine who gets what. The hard work that you have done for months should say enough compared to the lack of work the individual does. That makes no sense. In adulthood we understand and move on. In the lives ofkids that kills their morale, desire, and motivation.

Fry

Dec 3 2003

I agree that kids are set up for failure. I even think ALL our children are set up for failure, even those who get good grades in high school but then can't perform in college or underperform in the workplace because they can't REALLY think. Brian, I think the larger problem is preparation YEARS before the exam, not just the four months or so before it. You can't make up for 11 and a half years of poor education by studying hard for four months. It all begins with early childhood education, and this is the greatest failure of No Child Left Behind. Because of its one-size-fits-all, pass/fail approach and the lack of funding, all our children will be left behind. Because even those who get good grades and pass those exit exams will be ill prepared to lead our corporations, our foundations, and our government if they've never been taught to think critically and don't know history. As for moral, motivation, and self-confidence, nothing is worse than waking up at 40 and realizing that you're not nearly as smart as you thought you were, that everything you were taught was either inadequate or wrong, and that it's too late for you to do anything about it.

Nia

Dec 3 2003

Nia wrote: "Because even those who get good grades and pass those exit exams will be ill prepared to lead our corporations, our foundations, and our government if they've never been taught to think critically and don't know history." That's certainly true, Nia. The rote anti-critical-thinking, one-right-way "reform" movement is terrifying, especially when you try to have a conversation with folks who learned in such a true-false fashion. Not only will they have trouble communicating and thinking creatively in the workplace and larger society, but they will inevitably create ripple effects with their difficulty in communicating, so that others must scale their walls before they can accomplish anything. If you don't agree exactly with them, you're the opposite extreme. Everything is a true-false, either-or question; if you suggest otherwise, you're treated with contempt.

ladd

Dec 3 2003

There is also a complete lack of confidence, instilled in my view by overly rote learning, that brings with it the inability to engage in a spirited conversation without devolving into insults. There are young people in my family who learned that way who have no confidence in their own knowledge even though they make good grades. What good is knowledge if you can't have a decent conversation? Your last sentence there is true to some extent, but I never think it's too late to learn. I listened to my mother read words for the first time in her 60s, and that memory continually inspires me. It's the belief that learning stops as soon as someone passes a standardized test or two that scares me. I fully realize I'm fanatical about learning (thanks to Mama), but I truly try to challenge my brain in some way every single day. The funny thing is that so many people would actually have contempt for my saying that I do that. Somehow, we've gotten to a place where seeking to gain and share knowledge is considered elitist. Shudder.

ladd

Dec 3 2003

That reminds me of another book we should add to the book blog list: "The Closing of the American Mind." I agree that it's never too late to learn. What I meant above is that many people "feel" that it's too late by that time in their lives because they don't know how to start over.

Nia

Dec 3 2003

I understood what you meant. ;-) Is that the Allan Bloom book? We might also consider reading the old classic about our fair state, James Silver's "The Closed Society" while we're on the open-and-shut theme. I've been looking for a reason to re-read it.

ladd

Dec 3 2003

Yes, Allan Bloom. I haven't read "The Closed Society," but we might as well add it to the list. :-)

Nia

Dec 3 2003

Yes, the list is getting hefty, eh? ;-) Actually, I had Bloom's book on my nightstand forever, and couldn't get into it. He seemed to be drowning in his own agenda; I felt like Lynne Cheney was in the room with us at all times. Maybe you can convince me otherwise. I'm open for suggestion. Frankly, I need to locate a copy of "Guns, Germs & Steel," but I'm slammed through the weekend anyway with the paper and outside deadlines. (Yes, I'm finally finding more time for other clients again after a JFP-only drought.)

ladd

Dec 3 2003

I read the book in college, and all I can remember about it is that we argued over its points for an entire two weeks of class. So I figure it would be good for this bunch! :-)

Nia

Dec 4 2003

Good point. You'd have to get through it first, though. I seem to remember it feeling like you had to scale a brick wall. But I am open to it.

ladd

Dec 4 2003

This guy was shot like 9 times, right? Must be some terrible shooters up in NYC. I just read about his gay comments, now his album sales will rise. I tried to post on the Banner thread but it has been closed. What i wanted to post was that this southern rap "crunk" music sounds terrible. It sounds like it was recorded with second rate equipment, although that might be the point the artist is trying to make. Southern=Poor. I knew the first time I heard Master P say "make em say UUHH, Na Na Na" (or something like that) that rap was going downhill. Kind of similar to people saying Cobain was great. (Where did that come from)

jimjam

Mar 12 2004

jimjam, actually "lo-fi" is becoming quite popular in many formats of music especially electronic... I'd never noticed it in rap music though. Will have to pay attention (when/if I listen). I read those comments made by 50 about the gay community. I'd wage he probably has resentment towards his bisexual mother or still has hang-ups associated with being antagonized by his peers (about his mother's sexuality).... Or, there's always the theory that those that hate something so much have their own repressed feelings to deal with. Heck.... A friend of mine suggested prison rape might have influenced his phobia half jokingly but with a serious look on his face. Either way, I never liked his sound or his lyrics so I could care less what he says about the gay community at the end of the day. Maybe 50 should read Erik's piece just published in the JFP discussing blacks discriminating against gays?

kaust

Mar 12 2004