Street Talk: What do you think about Councilman Kenneth Stokes?

By Donna Ladd Sunday, February 6, 2005 2:01 a.m. CST

Note: This thread was closed due to its length after 1,086 views and 97 comments.

Wendy Hickman, 26, Brown's Fine Art/Artist: "I find him somewhat abrasive in his comments and opinions."

Calvin Brown, 23, student: "My opinion may be different from his, so therefore I don't follow him."

Johnny Baskin Jr., 61, retired "Sometimes he has some good ideas, but sometimes I think he takes it a little too far. He's sometimes too hot headed. He needs to cool down, he jumps way out yonder as though he doesn't have any guidance from God. "

Ricky Norton, 47, Restaurant industry: "I only know what other people say about him. People either like him or hate him. I think he can use a little more objectivity and be a bit calmer."

Travis Robinson, 21, insurance agent: "He's a pretty good councilman; he tries his best to get things done. He did some renovation on the street where I was staying; it made the street a lot better."

Previous Comments

ID: 64175
Comment: I have found Kenneth Stokes to be a strong and bold man of great character, morality and courage. He's not afraid to be black and doesn't feel restrained or circumscribed by it. He also knows that he can't please everyone, especially his enemies, so he spends his time trying to please those who matters the most - the poor, voiceless, needy, disenfranchised, and so on. Needless to say, these characteristics reflect not only nobility but freedom, too.
Author: Ray Carter
Date: 2004-08-05T13:28:13-06:00

ID: 64176
Comment: The only person Kenneth Stokes cares about is himself. He is a thug and has no business representing Jackson. His bigoted attitude does nothing but promote contempt and loathing.
Author: Tray
Date: 2005-02-01T17:21:22-06:00

ID: 64177
Comment: He makes me sick. Although there are several reasons for this, the most important are that I believe he is a true racist and that his motive - as applied to virtually every issue on which he speakes out - is publicity. To the end of seeking publicity, I think he will say or do anything that advances the end. One reason I think this because he never - never - goes to committee meetings where the real council work is done. He does, however, conveniently show up when the cameras are on to then make a fuss about a bill or resolution that has been in the works for months - a fuss that he could have made at the beginning stages of negotiating over a bill or resolution. Someone has mentioned that he helps the poor and downtrodden. I agree that, on the whole, those are many of the people that he represents. That makes it all the more saddening, because I believe he hurts their plight more than he helps. I would even go as far as to say he feeds off of their plight.
Author: MAllen
Date: 2005-02-01T17:41:54-06:00

ID: 64178
Comment: I will bet my last dollar that most, if not all, of the white people who hates and calls Kenneth Stokes a racist are in fact racist themselves. Stokes is a black elected official who keeps getting elected for good reasons - the poeple in his district love and respect him because they think he delivers for them and he's not an uncle tom or a weakling. I have been noticing for quite some time that a growing number of white people are publicly taking the position that they know better than black folks what black folks need, want and deserve. I bet these same kinds of people knew what black folks needed and deserved during slavery, and was no doubt giving it to black folks daily. I've also noticed lately that too many of our black elected officials and leaders have been hurriedly and callously labeled as race pimps who are hussling black folks for personal publicity and gains. No doubt there are a few of those kinds of people but I know Kenneth Stokes ain't one of them. Just as the terms "welfare queens" and "affirmative action" have been used to subtledly imply or signal to racist and fearful white folks that black folks are hardly any good, and are evil, lazy, and looking for handouts; so too are the words 'race pimps" or their implication being used to crucify, emasculate and circumscribe the leadership and voices of black leaders and even common black folks. This might work for racist white folks but it won't work for us. We know the truth. We have never been totally blind nor will we ever be. Mr. Stokes always has good intentions.
Author: Ray Carter
Date: 2005-02-02T13:22:15-06:00

ID: 64179
Comment: I agree that many racists hate Kenny Stokes. However, I disagree with the presumption that most of the people who hate (a rather strong term, I think) Stokes are racists. Most people I know simply consider him beyond the fringe - someone so paranoid about racial motives being behind every single decision that he is considered beyond the pale. Moreover, many people, including me, don't believe that this paranoid is sincere (because we can't understand who in the world these white people are who he thinks are he thinks are engaging in some ongoing conspiracy to "keep black people down;" yes, some of those whites do exists, but they are the minority and are written of as white trash; many on this board will disagree with this assessment). Rather, we think that he uses it as a club to beat people over the head with and make wild accusations - and then scare a bunch of people away from criticizing him for fear of being labeled a "racist." The criticism of Stokes has not been hurried or callous (although many of Stokes' numerous accusations against numerous people have been hurried and callous). Rather, he has earned the criticism over time during his long tenure as a councilman. To the extent that people agree with Stokes-type paranoia that most white people are "against" blacks, I think that is the saddest part of it all.
Author: MAllen
Date: 2005-02-02T13:58:59-06:00

ID: 64180
Comment: Interesting discussion about Stokes. The only thing I'd add right now is a reminder that most people do not get a very full picture of Stokes (or any other local official including the mayor and Allen) from local news coverage. Judging Stokes based on the sound bites that are lifted by the Ledge and the TV stations would be about as accurate as judging Ben Allen based on quotes lifted from his WJNT radio show. Both can outrage you, but neither would be a full picture. Remember, if you haven't, to read the JFP Interview with Stokes. It may not change your mind about him, but it does offer more to consider, at least. Same goes for our interview with Ben Allen. Or the one with the mayor. All of these men are much more complex and rounded than the corporate media would have you believe.
Author: DonnaLadd
Date: 2005-02-02T14:09:22-06:00

ID: 64181
Comment: It's so easy (and intellectual lazy) to label Stokes' dectractors as racists. Personal insults rather than objective arguments seem to be Stokes's primary tactic as well. Stokes's style is ironically reminiscent to populists of the past who earned the admiration of his their constituency with small favors and good deeds while fomenting animosity and resentment between different groups of people. Even if he's helped a few people in Ward 3, his grandstanding and bullying has damaged the overall city and has hindered racial reconcilation in Jackson. For what he's done, the people should make Stokes a pariah, not a public servant.
Author: sny guy
Date: 2005-02-02T14:54:08-06:00

ID: 64182
Comment: Interesting points, sny. I wonder, do you think it's also too easy and intellectually lazy to simple label Stokes a "racist"óat least without listing the reasonsóas people often do? Understand I'm not taking his "side" hereóit just seems like a lot gets lost (and little of substance) said in the sniping over Stokesóespecially when coupled with the simplistic and sensationalistic he said/she said media coverage. Let's take it further without just calling people namesóeven the people who call other people names, which Stokes certainly does. It does strike me, though, that he's pretty equal opportunity about it: I've heard him criticize black people just as often, if not more, than white people. Note the ad hominem attacks above on this thread, for instance: "thug" and "racist"ówhy don't we talk about WHY people think these things about Stokes or anyone else for that matter. There is a big difference between called someone a "racist" or a "bigot" and explaining why you believe something they do is racist or bigoted. The latter is more intellectually rigorousóand it might actually get us somewhere.
Author: DonnaLadd
Date: 2005-02-02T15:29:12-06:00

ID: 64183
Comment: An interesting comment from a person too chicken to use their real name. Certainly, all of Stokes detractors aren't racist. Some of his detractors aren't even haters or critics of his. If you were honest and/or had read my comments clearly you would note that my venom is only toward racist trying to call Stokes racist. You can't name a single person Mr. Stokes has encouraged or suceeded at inciting to hate white people. Smart people like me, and like you could be, will always see the truth. If Mr. Stokes has hindered racial reconciliation then it's because people like you are too weak, blind and uncommitted to stand up and override any intractable harm he has done. Of course, I know he hasn't done any intractable damage to the race issue. The race issue was here before Mr. Stokes came alone and unfortunately will be here when we are all gone. The true purveyors of racism and antireconcilation are not Mr. Stokes and the likes; but are the powerful and quite people of Jackson who aren't saying a word but are quitely and methodically fueling their engines of racism. These people are hurting people of all races. In case you're wondering, I attempt to speak the truth and let the chips fall where they may. Also, I might add that I don't agree with everything Mr. Stokes does; however, I don't label him a race pimp, hussler, dumb or other hurtful labels. I personally know him and don't have to guess who or what he is.
Author: Ray Carter
Date: 2005-02-02T15:50:48-06:00

ID: 64184
Comment: I apologize if syn guy was the last person's real name. I'm willing to have a discourse on race at any time with anybody. Both black and white people have gotten angry at me because of my thoughts and positions the race issue.
Author: Ray Carter
Date: 2005-02-02T16:06:55-06:00

ID: 64185
Comment: I'll vouch for Ray. He is straightforward and a very clear thinkeróand doesn't choose sides because it's "black" or "white."
Author: DonnaLadd
Date: 2005-02-02T16:32:29-06:00

ID: 64186
Comment: Since I only lived in Jackson (well, actually Ridgeland) for 13 months, I'll throw in only this comment. I'm sure that a lot of whites hate him for being a "loudmouthed [insert racist term of your choice]". On the other hand, you have to wonder why the other African-Americans on the city council, Mayor and Chief Moore (none of them "Uncle Tom" material, if that matters to you) don't attract the controversy Stokes does. Regardless of what you think of him, his pit bull tone really turns a lot of people off. Now I'm white and have NO PROBLEM with African Americans standing up for their own interests - especially since much of it IS justified. Stokes TONE, however does NOTHING to help things. This means that whatever issues he has concerning the city and race will fall on deaf ears in the white community - regardless of how sound and substantive his positions are.
Author: Philip
Date: 2005-02-02T17:38:55-06:00

ID: 64187
Comment: I'm going to avoid labels here. I'm just going to mention, as Donna requested, a few public comments by Stokes that could be interpreted as a manifestation of strong anti-white or "racist" sentiments. * Several years ago, Stokes publicly stated he opposed the annexation of Byram because the influx of white residents would "dilute black voting strength". He said "Jackson needs a black mayor." * He regularly refers to white people who disagree with him as "racists" and African-Americans who disagree with him as "Uncle Toms." * He invited Imari Obadele to a city council meeting to speak. Obadele is a member of the Republic of New Africa, a separatist group that sought to establish its own nation in the South. Obadele was convicted in connection to the murder of Jackson Police Lt. Bill Skinner and apparently expresses no remorse for the killing. * He was quoted on the radio as saying, "We got enough folks there kissing white folks' behinds. They go home with a mouthful of booty. " * Another quote: "They say the white folks are giving money to everybody but a three-legged dog to run against me. We're going to whip them all." Swap the race of the speaker and who his comments were delivered about. Put Stokes's words in a white municipal leader talking about black people in his area. There would undoubtedly be widespread indignation in the community, including my own. I don't necessarily like to use this hypothetical because of the historical situations of the races have obviously been quite different and different emotions naturally result that history. But the point should be made. As the Sheriff said, inviting Obadele to a city council meeting is similar to Richard Barrett inviting Edgar Ray Killen to the Fair. People may view, not unreasonably, that by inviting someone with Obadele's views and background to speak, Stokes tacitly accepts the man's movement. Maybe we should give him credit for not holding back and speaking his mind. But personal candor is all I'm willing to credit him with. What bothers me about Stokes is that he tries to pit one race against another at a point in America where we should be seeking cohesion and collaboration between the races, not more division. And the councilman's confrontational style and controversial rhetoric, while not representative of Jackson, are what's seen when people watch or read the news. If he's not leaving office anytime soon, I suppose I should ignore his antics rather than giving him another pulpit. Because I think most of us agree there are so many more positive aspects of Jackson than this city councilman.
Author: sny guy
Date: 2005-02-02T18:13:29-06:00

ID: 64188
Comment: As the Sheriff said, inviting Obadele to a city council meeting is similar to Richard Barrett inviting Edgar Ray Killen to the Fair. People may view, not unreasonably, that by inviting someone with Obadele's views and background to speak, Stokes tacitly accepts the man's movement. I'm hearing this analogy drawn all over the place, and I find it offensive and uninformed. You can be completely against Obadele and everything he stands for and still be able to see that that this analogy to Killen (and Barrett) does not work logicallyóand is offensive to the families of Chaney, Goodman and Schwerner.
Author: DonnaLadd
Date: 2005-02-02T19:09:15-06:00

ID: 64189
Comment: Tonight, I'll reneg on my promise to stay away from this one - but the analogy debate really caught my eye. I admit that the sherrif's comparison with Barrett and Killen won't win any prizes to be proud of. Even so, the point remains that inviting a marginal crank to you city council meeting is NOT good public relations. Again, as with sny, I don't like hypotheticals, but I'll throw out one of my own and see what you all think. Inviting Obadele to a city council meeting is as bad as if, for example, Haley Barbour invited a member of ChristianExodus.org to the mansion. I'm not saying Haley actually would pull something like this. Nor should this be construed in ANY way to suggest that he would or that I would think he would. This is after all ONLY a hypothetical used as my attempt to strengthen the point that Stokes apparently screwed up by inviting him. [1] ChristianExodus.org is an organization seeking to convince thousands of Christians to move to South Carolina so they can take that state out of the union in order to "reestablish" a "Christian Republic" under the Ten Commandments. Mississippi and Alabama were also mentioned as promising states. http://www.sff.net/people/krad/exodus.htm for more. I'm not saying Haley actually would pull something like this. Nor should this be construed in ANY way to suggest that he would or that I would think he would. This is after all ONLY a hypothetical used as my attempt to strengthen the point that Stokes apparently screwed up by inviting him.
Author: Philip
Date: 2005-02-02T19:34:35-06:00

ID: 64190
Comment: I don't have time to address everything you're saying right now, Sny, but I think your points could lead to good dialogue -- a beginning rather than an end statement with an exclamation point as such statements are often made. Therefore, please take my comments on your comments in the spirit they're offeredóas a way to get past the first base of discussion on these tough issues. (And, bear in mind, that I've written that Kenny Stokes can be an obnoxious big-mouth, so I'm not here to defend him. I don't think he needs me to defend him, in fact, not that I would.) OK, to start, you said: * Several years ago, Stokes publicly stated he opposed the annexation of Byram because the influx of white residents would "dilute black voting strength". He said "Jackson needs a black mayor." What exactly about this is racist? Is it because Stokes is spelling out that he believes that Jacksonóa city that is two-thirds blackó"needs a black mayor." Is saying, or believing, that on its face racist? If so, what do you think of all the insane redistricting and race gerrymandering on the part of the Republican Party? Does that equally outrage you? This is no secret, although they seldom stand up and proclaim it for what it is. But all you have to do is look at a map and those jagged dips into white neighborhoods to see what's going on. * He regularly refers to white people who disagree with him as "racists" and African-Americans who disagree with him as "Uncle Toms. I agree that this is ad hominem and not exactly conducive to discussion. But plenty of people refer to Kenneth Stokes as a racist; does that mean that everyone of them *is* racist because they do that? And you may find "Uncle Tom" offensive, but it is a slang label used for black people who seem to be pandering to white interests *over* the interests of other black people ... and a phrase typically used by black people. And the origin of the phrase is very real: for the "Uncle Toms" who worked with their white owners against other black slaves. So, the question is, does believing that someone else is doing this automatically qualify someone as racist? I'm not sure it does. * He was quoted on the radio as saying, "We got enough folks there kissing white folks' behinds. They go home with a mouthful of booty. Yes, offensive. ;-) But is it worse than a lot of the statements made on WJNT about black people and the other codes for them -- by folks like Ben Allen and that dude who spews on Thursday a.m. (Larry?) I'm not saying that one means the other is OK -- but why just the outrage over what Stokes is saying? Yes, he's outrageous, but have you heard some of the stuff those guys say -- and Allen is a councilman, too. Where is the "widespread indignation," as you call it, over the stuff they're saying on a regular basis? My point is that we ought to pay attention to both and then call them out as necessary. But, remember, that simply talking about race isn't in itself racist. "They say the white folks are giving money to everybody but a three-legged dog to run against me. We're going to whip them all." Tough words. But I do hear that the gist of his statement is true. It's obvious from the media and the angry tirades against him that white people do not like Stokes nearly as much as many black folks do. And if white people really are giving a lot of money to get him defeated, what is it about this statement that is so racist?
Author: DonnaLadd
Date: 2005-02-02T19:38:56-06:00

ID: 64191
Comment: I'm not quite convinced that Stokes (or Allen, by the way) is trying to "pit one race against another" although I can see how their jazzier quotes might make it seem that way. I do think that Stokes is bent on representing the black community in the way he sees fit -- and DOES NOT CARE what white people think about that, and a lot of people don't like that. (Perhaps the point Ray was making.) Again, this is devil's advocacy and discussion -- I personally believe that both Stokes and Allen could be more effective if they both toned it down publicly. (And I've seen some evidence of Allen doing that -- although I don't listen to his Thursday show. Can't stand it, which I've told him many times -- hi, Ben.) Truth is, as I've said already, I believe both these men are much more complex than the media present them. In addition, they're both rather intriguing to me as a writer, I must say.
Author: DonnaLadd
Date: 2005-02-02T19:39:43-06:00

ID: 64192
Comment: I'm not saying Haley actually would pull something like this. Really? Ronnie Musgrove invited Judge Moore to send the "10 Commandments" to our government buildings, and both he and Barbour and Tuck condoned anti-abortion crosses to be erected all over the Capitol lawn. As for the analogy ... my problem begins before yours starts. That is, I don't see the analogy between Killen and Obadele; you can dislike what they both stand for and still see the difference between the cases. Obadele was a radical revolutionary who filled his compound with guns and challenged a (at the time, violent) police department not to attack. You can completely disagree with Obadele's principles and mourn the death of police officer Skinner and still be able to see that that was a *very different scenario* than Killen, a Klansman who orchestrated a lynch mob to kidnap and kill three unarmed men, dedicated to the principles of non-violence. These easy analogies may sound great in sound bites, but they don't exactly help further understanding. However, I draw one similiarity between this and the Barrett/Killen dust-up: I think that the invitations (both Barrett's and Stokes') may, ultimately, lead to more understanding of a rough period of our history because it happened, and for that, I think it'll prove to be a positive once it all plays out. That is, IF we seize the opportunity to learn more about what was going on in Jackson and the U.S. in the early 1970s on all fronts.
Author: DonnaLadd
Date: 2005-02-02T19:54:01-06:00

ID: 64193
Comment: Also, Philip, I should add that the reason given for opposing Obadele's visit was that he was involved in the murder of a police officer -- not because he advocated/s a "black nation." It seems that folks are building their (in my view, faulty) analogy between him and Killen because they believe both orchestrated conspiracies to murders people of another race. I can see that as a starting point, but the facts of the two cases are quite different. Again, that doesn't mean that I'm a big fan of Obadele; I just think we do history a disservice by trying to say that an orange is just like that apple over there. Why not judge each case on its own merits and based on its own set of facts and circumstances? I believe we need all sorts of people involved in "the movement" to speak publicly to help further our understanding. Hell, I had Jim Giles speak at the JFP voter rally last fall. Why all the attempts at censorship -- and it is censorship when government property is involved. Back to your Haley/Christian separatist example: where would supporting Bob Jones University fit into that line of reasoning? I'd call them pretty separatist, in their own way.
Author: DonnaLadd
Date: 2005-02-02T20:01:11-06:00

ID: 64194
Comment: Donna, I put up the warning not to misconstrue my analogy because this is a PUBLIC BOARD run by the JFP. Since so many people visit this board, no doubt at least a few influential in public affairs just lurking around, I intended to SQUELCH FROM THE START any RUMORS about Haley doing such-and-such based MERELY on my hypothetical - even if I can't stand the guy. It's likewise trying to keep others from putting words into my mouth IF this matter comes up at a future date. Also, I have no substantive clue about what Haley would do where it strictly concerns marginal religious cranks. In short, that disclaimer is honest due prudence on my part. Re Bob Jones: Yuppers, I agree. No arguement with you there. Speaking of speaking out and dialogues - you might want to check the "Knowledge is Power" board for my posts about Jackson precincts and Census Tracts. Perhaps a story emphasizing commonalities between Fondren/Belhaven and the Lake Hico area (particularly the southern and eastern shore areas) might be interesting.
Author: Philip
Date: 2005-02-02T20:45:06-06:00

ID: 64195
Comment: Question that arise (not to attack the authors personally (often these statements were offered as thinking points and not assertions), but several points raised are worthy of response): Question: "I'm hearing this analogy [Killen to Obadele] drawn all over the place, and I find it offensive and uninformed. You can be completely against Obadele and everything he stands for and still be able to see that that this analogy to Killen (and Barrett) does not work logicallyóand is offensive to the families of Chaney, Goodman and Schwerner." Reply: Why is it offensive? Statement and Reply Question: "' Several years ago, Stokes publicly stated he opposed the annexation of Byram because the influx of white residents would "dilute black voting strength". He said "Jackson needs a black mayor.' What exactly about this is racist? Is it because Stokes is spelling out that he believes that Jacksonóa city that is two-thirds blackó"needs a black mayor." Is saying, or believing, that on its face racist? If so, what do you think of all the insane redistricting and race gerrymandering on the part of the Republican Party? Does that equally outrage you? This is no secret, although they seldom stand up and proclaim it for what it is. But all you have to do is look at a map and those jagged dips into white neighborhoods to see what's going on. Reply: If Bush said in his State of the Union speach, as we speak, that "This country is majority white. Therefore, we need a white President," what would the readers of JFP, and others, think? Let's make it local: If Ben Allen had a challenger, who happened to be black, say "You have to elect me because Ward 1 (assuming it is) is majority white and we need a white representing the district on the council," what would be said? Or what if Allen said that we don't need to annex a majoirty black town (assuming there was one) because it would make the city more black? (I understand that blacks and whites bring different histories, as applied their race, to the table; but racism is still racism is still racism; I think we will all agree that, on the whole, two wrongs don't make a right - ergo, just because whites (some or even a majority of them, at least) acted like evil idiots in years past, it doesn't provide justification for a black person to act like a racist today; which happens - at least with respect to the statements that some, albeit few, black representatives make (statements that if a white person made and "black" was substituted where "white" was used would be considered absulutely racists, and should be). Question: "He regularly refers to white people who disagree with him as 'racists' and African-Americans who disagree with him as 'Uncle Toms.'" [reply generally, see above post] Reply: Seemingly every time a black leader gets mad at another leader who happens to be black for his or her disagreement on a particular public policy stance, e.g., affirmative action, the accusation surfaces in about two seconds. It's offensive because it implicitly suggests to blacks - who don't agree with a particular black leader's stance on an issue - aren't "real" blacks because they don't support the particular stance. It suggests that blacks can't think differently and still be black.
Author: MAllen
Date: 2005-02-02T21:10:30-06:00

ID: 64196
Comment: A last thought: Stokes accused the father Skinner of "probably being one of the people who killed and beat black people." (I'm paraphrasing; see the full interview on www.wjtv.com) He provides NO EVIDENCE for this, yet has NO HESITATION to disparage Mr. Skinner in this way. He's sporting a smirk as he does it. We all know police did some really, really bad stuff back then. But just because Mr. Skinner was a police officer during that time does not mean that he engaged in those acitivities. And, lacking evidence, it is horrid that he would suggest that he took place in those activities when Mr. Skinner is not hear to defend himself (which is why many think Stokes is a demagogue; always bringing up fabricated accusations when the person is not there to defend him or herself). In short, just because you were a cop at that time doesn't mean you did some of the awful things that occured at that time, and it's irresponsible to assume otherwise, as Stokes, once again, did.
Author: MAllen
Date: 2005-02-02T21:20:36-06:00

ID: 64197
Comment: As MAllen has pointed out, if the roles were reversed and a white person said the things Stokes said, 95% of Jackson as well as the state would explode in protest. Blacks and whites together. I have found that many blacks feel this way about Stokes. He has no ambition to work with anyone who doesn't have his own similar outlook. If you read the JFP interview, it's quite clear. And as Donna said, you can't just go by what the media tells you. Well, I watch every Jackson City Council meeting and he amazes me everytime with his narrow mind. And as often as he uses the term rascist, you would think he would know what the word means. The following is from the JFP. JFP: Your critics, which include members of your own race, have called you a racist. How do you respond? Stokes: How am I a racist? You never seen Kenneth Stokes shoot anybody or cut anybody. Iíve never participated in any act of violence against any race in that vein. Iím a no-nonsense person; I have a number of white so-called leaders who would like to talk to me. I donít talk to a lot of people; that way I donít have to worry about someone lying on me. White people call me with a problem because they know I will get it done. I do understand that a lot of black people have jobs and to keep their job, they have to be anti-Kenneth Stokes. Employers will ask: ìWhat you think about Kenneth Stokes?î Well, thatís almost like an interview question. If they like me, they canít work there. Most people call me Kenny; donít care what ward theyíre from; if they got problems, they call Kenneth Stokes; just as many white people call my phone as black people. That would be funny if my taxes weren't paying his salary. I don't think the only things you do to be a rascist is "shoot or cut somebody" based on race. Give me a break.
Author: jlp
Date: 2005-02-02T21:44:21-06:00

ID: 64198
Comment: What has Ben Allen actually done that inspires you to say that he should "tone it down?"
Author: sny guy
Date: 2005-02-02T21:45:54-06:00

ID: 64199
Comment: In short, just because you were a cop at that time doesn't mean you did some of the awful things that occured at that time, and it's irresponsible to assume otherwise, as Stokes, once again, did. I agree with that completely, Matt. If Stokes has evidence that Skinner did those kinds of things, he should present it before saying those kinds of statements. I haven't seen any evidence of that, and if I do I will report it. Skinner apparently was the head of intelligence who was investigating the organization, so he wasn't just a cop on the sidelinesóbut that doesn't mean he "killed and beat black people." Agreed: outrageous without evidence. Now to some of your other points. Re the Killen/Obadele "analogy" -- it is offensive because I have seen no evidence that supports such an analogy. I've gone into this already above: these are very different sets of circumstances. It strikes me that one could draw a closer analogy between the RNA situation and Rudy Ridge, on some levels, or even Waco (you know, police raid armed anti-government fortress whose leader had taunted them; raid goes bad) than the Klan mob in Neshoba County that hunted down and killed unarmed civil rights workers dedicated to non-violence. That doesn't mean that both cases aren't tragic -- they are just very different, and it hurts my brain to see people say they're the same. As for your Byram annex point -- I could get into issues of minorities trying to gain a footing in majority cultures -- but this isn't graduate school. So I'll stick to a more straightforward point: Just because Bush (or others) do not make those points explicit (like their forebears like Eastland, Thurmond, etc.) did does not mean they're not doing it. This isn't a game of political correctness (which has shifted way rightward these days) -- the reality is that politicians of all races are working for their race to be the majority in their district rather than actually working to represent interests of people of different races -- which, in reality, may be different. This is just true, and we all know it. I don't see how Stokes' saying it is somehow worse than white politicians playing the southern strategy and, say, bowing before the Council of Conservative Citizens for votes. If we going to go after playing the race card, let's not be blinded by race while we're doing it. I'm not saying past racist idiots justify anything todayóand I've had hefty arguments with people with black separatist beliefs on this very topic. However, I am saying that people of both races often look for "racism" in places where it doesn't always exist. And if we do that without thinking, whether with Stokes or otherwise, we are just widening a chasm. Perhaps we should spend some time defining "racism" here before we continue -- but I can't at the moment. I'm at home, this is Todd's Mac, and he's kicking me off. ;-) More soon ...
Author: DonnaLadd
Date: 2005-02-02T21:46:59-06:00

ID: 64200
Comment: You must not listen to Allen's radio show, Sny. He has gotten much better of late (I mean recent months), and seems to be trying to tone down his partner without actually hurting his feelings, but so many comments on there are outrageous: "thugs" this, "thugs" that. If you go back and read the crime rhetoric of the '60s against black people, it's often very similar -- I mean the exact words you hear today. Now, all this said, I enjoy talking to Ben one on one, and have gotten to know him better. (I could make the very same statement about Stokes, by the way.) I don't believe Allen supports a lot of the crap that comes out of that show -- but I also don't understand why he helps facilitate it. He's smarter than that, I believe, and it's a waste. It certainly panders to some really poor thinking. As MAllen has pointed out, if the roles were reversed and a white person said the things Stokes said, 95% of Jackson as well as the state would explode in protest. I don't agree. Where was the explosion when The Northside Sun columnist wrote recently that blacks should give thanks every day for slavery -- and Wyatt Emmerich gave him a $100 prize? Your statement is wishful thinking. There's a double standard at play here. You're right that it's become harder for white demagogues to use the actual words of race ("white," "black") -- so that would cause some outrage if used in certain ways. Maybe. But, to tell you the truth, I hate the coded crap worse -- the politicians who play the southern strategy and pretend they don't know the CofCC is racist, even while trying to get their votes. Truth is, I prefer that we move past it all -- but we're not gonna as long we just keep finger-pointing at the other side. And the coded isn't even particularly subtle: witness Barbour's campaign and Bush at Bob Jones University. We're not idiots here.
Author: DonnaLadd
Date: 2005-02-02T21:55:35-06:00

ID: 64201
Comment: Donna "Truth is, I prefer that we move past it all -- but we're not gonna as long we just keep finger-pointing at the other side." Stokes, like many, will never move past it.
Author: jlp
Date: 2005-02-02T22:02:38-06:00

ID: 64202
Comment: Evidence is here: www.wjtv.com Go to local news and scroll down. For the February 1, 2005, entries there will be a "Stokes Speaks Out" headline. Go to approximately 1 min. and 25 sec. into the film. Some might attempt to argue that he posed his comment as a question, not an assertion. If so, more power to you for your trust and/or creative imagination. At a minimum, even if someone does view the statement as a pure question (which I can't see how; just my interpretation here), I don't see how it still is not blatently rude, offensive, inconsiderate, and heartless to the Skinner family. As to this: (Donna, I love ya and your paper, really, just like debating too much) Just because Bush (or others) do not make those points explicit (like their forebears like Eastland, Thurmond, etc.) did does not mean they're not doing it. This isn't a game of political correctness (which has shifted way rightward these days) -- the reality is that politicians of all races are working for their race to be the majority in their district rather than actually working to represent interests of people of different races -- which, in reality, may be different. This is just true, and we all know it. I don't see how Stokes' saying it is somehow worse than white politicians playing the southern strategy and, say, bowing before the Council of Conservative Citizens for votes. If we going to go after playing the race card, let's not be blinded by race while we're doing it. Reply: One, I disagree completely that governmental officials (at least all) work to keep their particular race in the majority (obviously, reasonable people can disagree on this). Two, let's assume that Bush and other republicans do implicitly hint at the race card: (I don't think they do, save for certain southern republicans, e.g., I agree with your take on the CCC issue, and it's maddening that republican officials don't explicitly denouce the group - I admit- I have to scratch my head wondering why they do not - every republican I've ever talked to thinks the CCC is composed of a bunch of idiots). If so, why is Bush dounced in such a harsh fashion for his implicit remarks (again, assuming that is how they are intended), but Stokes is not denounced for is explict remarks? If Bush does do this in reality, then the criticism is well placed. But why not for old Kenny? Why does he get a free pass?
Author: MAllen
Date: 2005-02-02T23:14:49-06:00

ID: 64203
Comment: Stokes, like many, will never move past it. With all due respect, jlp, that's a useless statementósignifying nothing, so to speak. You do not, and cannot, know that to be true. You are rhetorically speaking for other people. Why do that? Back to MAllen, no problem, guy. We are trying to have a discussion about difficult issues; that's a good thing. No offense taken; keep going. And I'm pretty dispassionate on the topic of Stokes (and Allen, for that matter) -- unlike most, I don't love him or hate him. I see some complexity and a connection to bigger issues if we take time to see past the sound bites. I believed you on the WJTV quote, BTW. You didn't have to prove it, although it's cool you provided a link. More people should attribute their statements. ;-) I'll take a look at it later, but I've already said he said provide of such a thing if he's going to say it. Then: One, I disagree completely that governmental officials (at least all) work to keep their particular race in the majority (obviously, reasonable people can disagree on this). Wait, it's not fair to skate past that point. It's a big one in response to the Byram statement way above. What about all the gerrymandering/redistricting to keep certain districts white majority? What is that if it's not "work(ing) o keep their particular race in the majority"??? You can't just ignore the veracity of this. Second, who said Stokes ISN"T denounced? That man is denounced more than anyone I've ever seen. I'm not saying NOT to denounce his inappropriate statements -- I'm asking why (especially white) people do not give equal time to equally outrageous statements by white politicians (or columnists)? The exact opposite is true with Bush -- he is not denounced nearly hard enough for his racial coding. Neither is Barbour, etc. I'm saying to take the blinders off and be able to look at both sides (not you, but people in general). And I'm not sure exactly what "free pass" that Stokes is getting that someone else isn't getting. This seems like backward logic to me. As for CofCC, I have my own theories about why they do it -- and it's beyond simple racism. It's about politics -- and that they (white southern politicians) truly do not believe they can be elected without the racist vote. We all know it is true that they believe this -- it's the heart of southern strategy, and it beomces a self-fulfilling prophecy (making the racist yuck-yucks happy campers). But every thinking, non-racist, white Mississippian should be furious at being condescended to in such a way. It's a cycle that needs to end -- and it has to start with smart, WHITE politicians who refuse to play the old game. They need to step up and help change the paradigm.
Author: DonnaLadd
Date: 2005-02-02T23:54:20-06:00

ID: 64204
Comment: One other point: if white politicians would be willing to offend the racists a bit more often, rather than play the southern strategy, much of the redistricting discussion would become mute. Black voters would be perfectly willing to vote for white politicians who pay attention to their issues and are willing to "look upstream" to the history and cause (as someone famous said; forget who at the moment). I am confident about that. Unfortunately, I don't know if the opposite is true, yet, but it could be if we could smash the devotion to the southern strategy. We won't, can't move past racial roadblocks as long as all this wink-wink political race coding is going on. Everyone, black and white, knows it's happening and, thus, how disingenuous it is for white folks to scream about Stokes' racism when they're too willing to look past their own race's (a la that Northside Sun column, which made my blood run cold with its hubris). The key is going to be to make it happen at once, and not wait for the other guy to stop being racist first. (you first, no you) It reminds me of Teddy Kennedy being too gun-shy to question Clarence Thomas, based on his own past. There's still a lot of work for white Mississippians to do on the race issue, frankly, and whining about Stokes' "racism" is only wasting time (or, for some, deflecting). He's only as relevant as people allow him to be.
Author: DonnaLadd
Date: 2005-02-03T00:15:51-06:00

ID: 64205
Comment: I'm rendered speechless by the thoughtfulness, intellegence, passion and honesty displayed in the many emails on this board. How can anyone not be touched? As a person who does death penalty criminal defense work, I often have the awesome responsibility of trying to convince a nearly all white jury not to vote to kill a black person accused of killing a white person. I had wondered for years whether such a task was possible considering the undeniable and deep-seated racism in the country and the South in particular. This allows me as a black man to not only face the issue of race but also the value of a black life compared to that of a white life in the eyes of white people. I can tell you unequivocally that they are some amazing and angelic white people in this world. I have had a jury (composed of 11 whites and 1 black) to unanimously choose a life verdict over the death penalty for a black defendant accused of killing a wonderful white person. I ain't trying to say such an occurence is routine or I haven't seen the opposite or converse. Yet this clearly illustrates there are good and bad people in every race. I hope that we good people will somehow find a way to routinely overshadow the bad ones. I have said before, and say again, I see hope for a better future; but we have to keep fighting for it. In case anybody is wondering, I am as anticrime as they come, but I also believe life is precious, and since we can't give it, we can't take it away.
Author: Ray Carter
Date: 2005-02-03T11:20:16-06:00

ID: 64206
Comment: First, Ray, beautifully written JPL: Stokes, like many, will never move past it. Donna: "With all due respect, jlp, that's a useless statementósignifying nothing, so to speak. You do not, and cannot, know that to be true. You are rhetorically speaking for other people. Why do that?" Thanks for the respect, Donna. (animosity noted) Both white racist and black racist are dinasaurs which don't belong in today's society. They do nothing but make life more difficult as they attempt to dismantle all the progress that's been made in the the past decades. Perhaps you should be as skeptical of people no matter what color they are. Why try to be devils advocate over an issue which is as blatently clear as this? How can any even thinking individual believe someone should get away with the stunts Stokes has and will continue to pull? Is the mayhem that resulted in the City Council worth it? Calling McMillan and Allen racists? That's truly reckless. Then allowing Crisler to be verbally assaulted like that. In fact it's so reckless and absurd that Ben Allen laughed when Stokes said "Ben Allen is the biggest racist I know." Is that really helping the city of Jackson move forward and develop? Or is it simply an attempt to rip the city in half for ones on political gain? I truly believe that Donna and the JFP do a lot for the good of Jackson. It's great to have a publication pushing so hard to help Jackson's grow and prosper. The politics, on the other hand, are make me laugh more than the comics sometimes. Peace ;) Justin
Author: jlp
Date: 2005-02-03T14:37:09-06:00

ID: 64207
Comment: "Perhaps you should be as skeptical of people no matter what color they are. " How do you know that I'm not? In fact, I am absolutely equal opportunity when it comes to skepticism (ask, say Eric Stringfellow). That's a box you just can't put me in, Justin, even if it's where you'd prefer that I be. Then you could just dismiss my comments out of hand because I'm just letting the black guy the hook, or some such rhetoric. But, you're not listening to me. The truth is, I'm skeptical of both Stokes and Allen, and there are things I like about them both. Same goes for Sheriff McMillin and Harvey Johnson. In addition, I'm skeptical of Jesse Jackson, Imari Omadele, Bill Clinton, Rod Paige, Colin Powell, Condoleeza Rice, David Hampton, Ronnie Agnew, Frank Melton ... the list can go on and on. I am perfectly willing to criticize someone regardless of their race or ideology, or to say I agree with them, regardless of either. (Interestingly, this can be politically incorrect to conservativesólike Orrin Hatch accusing people of "high-tech lynchings" if they dare to question a black conservative like Clarence Thomas. Talk about an ultimate insult of a person of color.) In fact it's so reckless and absurd that Ben Allen laughed when Stokes said "Ben Allen is the biggest racist I know." Is that really helping the city of Jackson move forward and develop? I agree with you. It's is "reckless and absurd" to say that publiclyóbut so is much of the crap that is said on the other side of the aisle (and on Thursday a.m. talk radio, or in Northside Sun columns). That is the whole point: there's absurdity all over the place here, and if we're going to move forward, we need to call it all out. There was no animosity in what I said back to jlpóit was completely dispassionate and factual. I'm pointing out that he cannot know whether or not "Stokes, like many, will never move past it." (The same thing would have been said about many white racists in the 1960s, like say Citizens Council president Bill Simmons, but now black folks are eating brunch at his inn.) This isn't a defense of Stokes -- it's about semantics. It's a waste of time for any of us to sit here and say what he, or anyone, else will or will not think in the future. That's just a nonsensical statement -- even if made as if it's carved in stone and can't be questioned. It can be.
Author: DonnaLadd
Date: 2005-02-03T15:23:21-06:00

ID: 64208
Comment: BTW, I dno't know if I'm responding to Justin or JPL -- are you the same person?
Author: DonnaLadd
Date: 2005-02-03T15:25:33-06:00

ID: 64209
Comment: One other point I forget to include: I happen to believe that we should be very careful about publicly calling someone a "racist"óno matter who they are, even as we should point out to them statements and beliefs that we believe hurt race relations, and then discuss those and air them out. In this particular discussion, if one was watching from, say, Mars, they would probably find it pretty funny that each side seems perfectly willing to call the other side "a racist" without impunity and then get immediately offended when they're called "a racist" back. My point is that the name-calling should stop, and a discussion of the actual details of the 1971 caseóall of them, on both sidesóshould occur. The whole thing was a tragic example of what Jim Crow did to us, to us white people who supported white supremacy, even if out of fear, and to black people who were under siege and who had so few options for fighting back, and to the police officers who were used to enforce Jim Crow and then were on the front lines of fire for the inevitable and tragic violent response to it. And there are lessons to be learned from it -- but not if everyone just keeps accusing the other side of being a "racist." This is way more complicated than simplistic analogies and finger-pointingówhether by a black finger or a white oneówill ever explain.
Author: DonnaLadd
Date: 2005-02-03T15:35:58-06:00

ID: 64210
Comment: hey donna....just blogged in....you shoulda been there for the "bigggest racist i know, 'cept at least he stays in jackson " routine....was a SCREAM! hey i ain't skeptical of you...you is ok... love yo' paper....and you shoulda listened this a.m..... was awesome....and heartfelt....bill skinner on again...and 7:35 friday a.m tune in...we get to go at it with david hampton....we will have a great convversation i am sure! keep the dream alive!
Author: Ben Allen
Date: 2005-02-03T15:40:53-06:00

ID: 64211
Comment: Hey Ben, thanks for chiming in and showing people we don't hate each other. ;-) In fact, as you know, you've gained much respect (back) from me in the last year -- but that radio show, dude, now that causes some skepticism! Of course, I haven't been listening much of late; can't take your partner, as we've discussed, and I don't think it brings out the best in you. I actually rolled over this a.m. and tried to turn the dial to it, figuring your phone lines would be in flames, but couldn't find it. So I went back to sleep. ;-D So now you're back in the race, eh? Don't tell me it's because of this dust-up.
Author: DonnaLadd
Date: 2005-02-03T15:48:46-06:00

ID: 64212
Comment: no m'aam it ain't...this whole episode has been a sad commentary on our wonderful city....so much emotional effort , unnecessary stress, "wanting to win at all costs" , pure hate and such....anyway...lunch next week and we will catch up on my decision...didn't EVER really want to leave...we will talk
Author: Ben Allen
Date: 2005-02-03T15:54:51-06:00

ID: 64213
Comment: Cool. Wednesday? Tell me where in e-mail. ;-)
Author: DonnaLadd
Date: 2005-02-03T16:16:54-06:00

ID: 64214
Comment: Donna, I stand corrected. I said: One, I disagree completely that governmental officials (at least all) work to keep their particular race in the majority (obviously, reasonable people can disagree on this). You said: Wait, it's not fair to skate past that point. It's a big one in response to the Byram statement way above. What about all the gerrymandering/redistricting to keep certain districts white majority? What is that if it's not "work(ing) o keep their particular race in the majority"??? You can't just ignore the veracity of this. You're right, I shouldn't have skated past that. And you've got a great point. When I responded I was thinking in terms of a static thought process of elected officials - i.e., day in, day out, I don't think they think about racial breakdowns in their district. But your right. Whenever gerrymandering pops-up(or just their district becoming a majority of a color that they at least suspect will vote against their party, for whatever reasons) race does become at least a factor. Maybe not always the horse carrying the cart, but certainly a factor, and most often probably (and honestly, unfortunately) a significant one (at least with he or she worrying). CofCC: agree there as well. But that is where I think my fellow republicans have their math all wrong (I'm putting this in numerical terms, not humanitarian terms)(and I, too, can think of no other reasons as to why it is not addressed except for my fellow repulicans to pander to the racist vote). I think a very, very slim portion of the republican vote would be turned off from voting if a candidate denounced the CofCC. Maybe I'm wrong if it was a primary, the vote was 50/50, and one candidate denounced the CoCC - but I don't think so. I want a candidate to test my theory. I'd, and many others I'm sure, would be more than curious to see how it pans out. As for Stokes' free pass, I'll have to come back later if possible - to tired right now (I know, I know, easy cop out).
Author: MAllen
Date: 2005-02-03T21:46:46-06:00

ID: 64215
Comment: ladd- No, JPL and Justin are not the same person, though it seems we have the same first name.
Author: Justin
Date: 2005-02-03T23:32:40-06:00

ID: 64216
Comment: Although I remained unconvinced that Mr. Stokes is the problem most of you claim he is, if we all assumed momentarily that he is a problem, what does that say about the ability, charisma, persuasion and effect of the other council members? I have been a part of many groups and organizations that had factions and divisions. More times than I can count, I have been able to win the loyalty, affection and committment of all of them - in some cases even to the point of getting them to elect me as the leader. Everybody respect what is good, real, geniune, fearless and righteous. I'll bet my last nickel that Mr. Stokes knows that many of the council members are secretly harboring personal agendas that include self promotion, jockeying for position or attention, and villification of others even if done quitely and with a smile on their faces.
Author: Ray Carter
Date: 2005-02-04T08:50:03-06:00

ID: 64217
Comment: MAllen, thanks for being willing to listen and discuss. I think the redistricting/CofCC issue are two sides of a coin. And I think you -- who could become my favorite Republican -- have hit it squarely. It is up to white policitiansóno, white Republicansóto reject race coding and the southern strategy. I'm with you -- I believe that it will work out for them in the long run, although it may take a nasty election or two to work it out. The Republican Party could, once again, be the party of Lincoln, rhetorically speaking, if it would return to the ideals it traditionally held, before it sold out to racism in the 1960s. I admire Republicans greatly who are trying to do this. We can argue and debate fiscal policy all we want, and should (the answers are in the middle), but it is hard to take any elected officiial seriously who would play to the worst racist instincts of people to get cheap votes. But this problem must be changed from the inside. After all, the Democrats did it in the 1960s -- but it drove off the Southern segregationists (who formed the modern Republican Party). But there have to be good Republicans left who reject that crap -- and they are probably the majority if they reject the "conventional wisdom" that they have to play to white racism in order to take the South. That's big shit, and no one should give in to it. You should help lead the way, MAllen. I'll support you, even if I don't agree with everything you believe. ;-)
Author: DonnaLadd
Date: 2005-02-04T10:25:36-06:00

ID: 64218
Comment: Quickly, on the topic of "Stokes' free pass" -- I know you haven't explained your reasoning, yet, MAllen, but I don't quite get it. If you mean he's getting a "free pass" because his constituents keeps electing him, you should at least ask them why. (Ray?) I will tell you that you see a very different Stokes at events in his Ward, or even sitting on his front porch. He is engaged one-on-one with voters there, and he at least creates the sense that he cares about them as people, and is trying to help them, or bring home a scrap of bacon to his ward. So, if you want to defeat him, that's partially what you're up againstówhether you believe it's real or not. Let's insert another analogy here, though, for the sake of discussion. If it puzzles one so how people could keep re-electing a man believed by many to be a public embarassment -- you have to look no further than Trent Lott. Lott is simply shameful on race issues; has contributed to the idea that all Mississippians are racist; is living in the past and openly apologist for Jim Crow; talks down to his own constituents and assumes we're stupid and uninformed (read his columns on the JFP site for proof); hurts race progress in the state by the policies he supports; isn't (or hasn't been) afraid to voice shocking racially insensitive (if not "racist") sentiments publicly. He calls people he doesn't agree offensive names, and he stereotypes not only his own people, but other "outsiders" as well. So, why do Mississippians keep electing such a person? Because, they say, he brings home the bacon for his district. He listens to their concerns on the ground, and tries to help people. Any clues here?
Author: DonnaLadd
Date: 2005-02-04T10:27:48-06:00

ID: 64219
Comment: No, JPL and Justin are not the same person, though it seems we have the same first name. OK, then, I don't know who I was talking to in the JPL posting above signed by "Justin." Oh, well. Doesn't matter.
Author: DonnaLadd
Date: 2005-02-04T10:34:25-06:00

ID: 64220
Comment: A quick bit of trivia: Did y'all know when the "southern strategy" first came about? During Reconstruction. Southern Democrats/slave supporters worried about Republicans using a "southern strategy" of using (just-enfranchised) black voters to help them win elections. Deliciously ironic, no?
Author: DonnaLadd
Date: 2005-02-04T10:50:42-06:00

ID: 64221
Comment: It was JLP- I haven't weighed in on this discussion yet.
Author: Justin
Date: 2005-02-04T10:51:37-06:00

ID: 64222
Comment: Donna, I knew you were "the greatest" from the moment I read the first issue of your paper. You may not remember it but I had you and Ms. Morris to autograph the first issue I read of your paper one day while at Peaches Cafe. I'm glad you have been able to withstand and resist any repercussions that can befall a person of your caliber - a white Mississippian who dares to challenge the old and obviously wrong ways, and yet survive. Love and truth will always eventually conquer hate and lies.
Author: Ray Carter
Date: 2005-02-04T10:51:58-06:00

ID: 64223
Comment: A while ago (maybe over a year ago) I suggested you do an issue on Race. You asked for my ideas which I never gave. As far as I'm concerned, you're doing the issue right now! And, you're doing it well, as a young rapper might say
Author: Ray Carter
Date: 2005-02-04T10:57:42-06:00

ID: 64224
Comment: Ray, thank you! That's very meaningful coming from you because I know that you, too, will are willing to challenge any/all sides. And I learned from you when you took my writing class. I have to say, though, I did NOT realize that was you in Peaches way back then who asked for our autographs. We were so flattered! You and I hadn't officially met, yet, and when we did I didn't put it together. Thanks for telling me. That's very cool to know. ;-) Repercussions? Ray, I came from nothing so it's not like I had a lot to lose by speaking my mind: why the hell not? Life's too short to keep your mouth shut about things that matter. And my mama taught me well; she was a "connector" in her own way: "people need to learn to mix it up," she'd say. I took her words to heart. Cheers, friend.
Author: DonnaLadd
Date: 2005-02-04T11:07:31-06:00

ID: 64225
Comment: I should also add, Ray, that I truly believe in the goodness of people. Sometimes education, whatever form it takes, is needed to bring it out. I know that, for me, I've learned more from good discussions with thoughtful people with different ideas not driven by ideology than through any other means. Of course, that's what a good classroom experience is as well. That's why I work so hard to keep these boards from devolving into strings of personal insults. It would be so easy to allow that to happen -- I am the zinger queen, after all, if I want to be -- but if we do that, all we attract is people who think insults are what life is all about and who just want to shout down people who don't follow one party or another. I'd shut this site down before I let that happen. To paraphrase the Clintonistas, it's about ideas, stupid! ;-D
Author: DonnaLadd
Date: 2005-02-04T11:24:40-06:00

ID: 64226
Comment: Good points of view up in here. It was good to read it all.....
Author: JAC
Date: 2005-02-04T14:33:40-06:00

ID: 64227
Comment: Sorry for the confusion. My first name is Justin. I didn't mean to imply that I was representing everyone named Justin who may have visited this site in the past. I shall no longer put my name on my postings. A little note: In haste, I transposed my initials when entering my username. It should be JPL not JLP. Oh well.
Author: jlp
Date: 2005-02-07T12:25:31-06:00

ID: 64228
Comment: That's OK, jlp. Use whatever name you want. I was just confused by the double name -- and there sure are a lot of J-names out there these days! ;-) And for a minute I thought you were one of those bloggers who use different screen names for different sides of your personality! We had a troll who used to do that -- he would try to be reasonable under one name and then troll under his fake personas, spewing venom. He wasn't smart enough to know he wasn't covering his cyber-tracks, and we knew it was him. And then he got all in a huff when we finally blocked his membership because he was spamming all the other members with rude e-mails (which is the reason we don't allow members to e-mail each other anymore. One bad apple ....) Of course, now he's moved on to other sites and doing the same thing from what we hear. Sigh. But you seem on the up and up, jlp/jpl, so no worry. Carry on.
Author: DonnaLadd
Date: 2005-02-07T12:41:16-06:00

ID: 64229
Comment: Ray Carter, your best friend Kenny Stokes is a bum. I'm a true Jacksonian born and raised and I grew up in Ward 3 and Kenneth hasn't done shit for that area, pardon my French. He cares NOTHING about what his constiuents have to say and he has done NOTHING for the area. Just like most have already stated, HE'S TERRIBLE.
Author: Black Man
Date: 2005-02-08T16:10:02-06:00

ID: 64230
Comment: Mr. Black Man, I guess I should start by complimenting your parents or you for having the pride and courage to name yourself Black Man. If this isn't your name then why are you too chicken to use your real name. I do consider Mr. Stokes a friend although admittedly I haven't been a real good friend considering I have seen him only 3 times in the last 22 years. I will make it a point to contact him this year and give some money for the next trip he organizes for poor or underpriviledged kids. Many of those kids would never see Washington D. C., Houston or other places without Mr. Stokes' grace and love. I know you consider this as "nothing" and surely you do more. While I know you must be tired and exhausted from canvassing and interviewing everybody in Ward Three, without naming names, can you give us a rough idea of how many people you talked to, and some of the comments they made to you? Can you tell us also why Mr. Stokes keeps winning in that ward considering he hasn't done anything for anybody or the ward? Enlighten us Black Man, surely you can?
Author: Ray Carter
Date: 2005-02-09T08:42:37-06:00

ID: 64231
Comment: Ray Carter, why do you care so much about what names people use on here? Is that your platform? to glote about how you use your "real" name as opposed to others using otherwise? boy please. All you need to know is that another person is on the other end of this conversation and you need to focus on THAT. Now, Stokes taking his nieces and nephews to D.C. is NOTHING in my eyes. That was a waste of cash. Why not use his lush money to repair some of those battered roads in Ward 3 and not wait until it's election time to do it. Or better yet, use his money to run short commercials on TV showing appreciation for kids who do great in school. That move alone can bolster high achievement in our schools and lesser drop out rates because kids will have the idea to get on TV by being good students,and what kid in Mississippi wouldn't love to be featured on TV for being a good student? Or better still, why not run for Mayor since you feel he CAN'T LOSE in Ward 3. My god he's been the councilman for Ward3 since I was in elementary. I'll tell you why he won't do such things. FEAR. Fear that if he runs for Mayor and loses, that means he loses his seat on the council and weez good porch coons can't have that now kin weez, Ray? He parlays his podium to the elderly because they don't know any better or are too old to give a shit so they vote for Ol'Kenny because that's all they've ever known so to them it's a safe bet. He spends a few buck to repair an old lady's roof and think he's done something? please. Kenneth is now kissing the hip hop communities ass for future votes because now that he's getting old he sees a NEW demographic making moves and can be a vital push for his ass to be ousted because the youth of today think NOTHING like their older counterparts in Jackson (I know, I have a son whose 16). So he runs up behind Kamikaze(rapper) and kisses his ass until good things can be said about his horrible track record. it's politricks in it's rarest form. And you Ray, are a JOKE. you claim to be Kenny's friend but haven't talked to him in 22 years. that's not a friend, that's somebody you see in passing. give it up. Kenneth Stokes is/was/and will always be a half-ass hoodlum politician leaving a black eye on the city of Jackson.
Author: Black Man
Date: 2005-02-09T09:10:20-06:00

ID: 64232
Comment: One minute without prroof you claim Mr. Stokes is my friend, the next minute without any proof you say he isn't. Just like I thought, you have no real opinion on anything because you have no substance or factual basis for an opinion. You're not worth the effort it takes to respond to you. Goodbye.
Author: Ray Carter
Date: 2005-02-09T09:29:45-06:00

ID: 64233
Comment: And you Ray, are a JOKE. you claim to be Kenny's friend but haven't talked to him in 22 years. that's not a friend, that's somebody you see in passing. give it up. Kenneth Stokes is/was/and will always be a half-ass hoodlum politician leaving a black eye on the city of Jackson. Ding, ding: Teachable Moment. I'm not saying these are the ONLY ad hominem attacks posted in the last 48 hours, but they are clear examples of what violates the User Agreement (and they're at the top of the site this a.m. when I checked in.) Black Man, I am not going to delete "you are a JOKE" and "Kenneth Stokes is/was/and will always be a half-ass hoodlum politician" this timeóbut they are prime examples of ad hominem name-calling that does not help discussion. I've given folks here some leeway on calling Stokes names in order to keep the discussion moving and because he is name to do a bit of name-calling himself, so I figure he asked for it. However, it is not what this site is here for. That said, to you and everyone else reading this, feel free to discuss actual issues. You can express a variety of options, as well as explain to others WHY you think *what they're saying* or their argument is weak. HOWEVER, DO NOT NAME-CALL AND ATTACK PEOPLE PERSONALLY IF YOU WANT TO KEEP POSTING HERE. PURE AND SIMPLE. This will function as the last call of sorts. From this point, I will simply delete the blatant ad hominem attacks without further notice, and repeat offenders will then be banned from the site. So I encourage all of you to think before you hit "submit." This is a site for discussion, not name-calling.
Author: DonnaLadd
Date: 2005-02-09T09:45:45-06:00

ID: 64234
Comment: I will also add that repeatedly, and purposefully, mischaracterizing what someone else is saying to try to make them look a certain way also qualifies as trolling. I encourage everyone to read other folks' comments carefully, and then if you mischaracterize someone, simply apologize, as our good blogger Matt Allen (Blogger o' the Month) has shown the good graces to do. There is a way to have wonderfully enlightening discussions among people who disagree -- but personal attacks shut them down immediately, and drive people away from Web sites, leaving four or five people who like to out-zing each other. If you're here looking for that, you've made a wrong turn.
Author: DonnaLadd
Date: 2005-02-09T09:49:42-06:00

ID: 64235
Comment: I believe Mr. Stokes will listen to good ideas and constructive criticism. Hopefully, he's reading these emails, or some serious but honest supporter or detractor is sending them to him. I'm a firm believer that our enemies inadvertently help us too. I've always listened to my critic and detractors just to identify whether any of them were honest, intelligent, serious, and could help me do a better job.
Author: Ray Carter
Date: 2005-02-09T10:26:50-06:00

ID: 64236
Comment: I apologize Miss Ladd, but as an African American whose lived in Jackson since birth(Ward 3 to be exact) I know first hand about this guy. I met him a long time ago and I didn't like his seemingly unintelligence then and I can't stand it evenmore nowadays. Miss Ladd, I don't know if you are a Jacksonian by birth, but you must understand how the MAJORITY of Blacks in Jackson feel about Ol'Kenny. I'm talking years upon years of NOTHING but Rebel rousing talk with NO solutions just a few monetary "gifts".
Author: Black Man
Date: 2005-02-09T12:45:30-06:00

ID: 64237
Comment: I got a solution Ray Carter! TELL KENNETH STOKES TO RUN FOR MAYOR And let's see how much support he's worth. Because he's not worthy to work for Ward 3
Author: Black Man
Date: 2005-02-09T13:01:02-06:00

ID: 64238
Comment: Black Man, why don't you or someone of your choosing or liking run against and defeat Mr. Stokes therby exposing the negligence and tricks you claim he employs, and consequently making Jackson and Ward Three a better place to live and coexist? You have the longstanding residency; you certainly claim to know his tricks and failings, and admittedly you have some good ideas. You have this awesome and monumental opportunity to save feeble-minded old folks, clueless hip-hoppers and everything in between and around from further egregious harm that you claim to clearly see. If you or someone else did this neither Jacksonians nor I could ever thank you enough for this wonderful task.
Author: Ray Carter
Date: 2005-02-09T13:21:17-06:00

ID: 64239
Comment: Ray Carter - You have no idea how bad I'm contemplating moving back to my old neighborhood that I've since moved from and running for his spot. I've wrestled with this notion for the longest time hoping I would see change in the current state of Ward3 by Ol'Kenny. I swear my aunts and uncles have pushed for me to make a move and honestly, I would rather be Mayor but given my current job paying handsomely I can't make the move at this point nor do I want to. I would do more harm than good because my views on how Jackson should run would alienate me more than embrace me because my views are too progressive and the populous of Jackson is more along the lines of status quo. So I'm taking a different route by investing in my son's future who is currently knocking at the door of a 4.0 gpa with a 3.8. After he's in college(hopefully JSU) I'll consider attacking the woes of Jackson head on. Maybe by that time, people will be open to more progress. But for now, I'm just the voice of reason in the crowd. nice talking to you all
Author: Black Man
Date: 2005-02-09T13:43:41-06:00

ID: 64240
Comment: one more point: The reason Kenneth Stokes gets so much backlash is because he's not diplomatic about issues. He comes across too hot headed and to be honest, that scares white people. If you want respect from the white populous in Mississippi you have to give it upfront or suffer long term consequences. Slavery is long since over, so no need in us Black people holding up the banners of "Black Power" and "Whites owe us for slavery" every damn time we speak. We're only hurting ourselves. the ancestial chains of slavery have to broken from our minds so we can move forward. IF we plan to move forward.
Author: Black Man
Date: 2005-02-09T13:51:39-06:00

ID: 64241
Comment: So Black Man you're saying white people should define, decide and select how black folks should present themselves, and not we ourselves. You mean to tell me 200 and more years after slavery we should still be overly concerned about how white folks view a free black man? Are you also telling me that white folks bear no blame for the racism and psychological damage that both races still have as a direct result of racism? Are you saying black folks bear equal or tantamount blame for racism in America? Moreover, are you saying Mr. Stokes has earned all of the hatred and villification that many whites have for him? If so, please state and explain exactly how he earned it? Would you like Mr. Stokes better if he were a yes man to whatever the majority race told him to do or say? I'm worried that you would? Is it Mr. Stokes job or purpose to make white folks feel comfortable? You say slavery is over but you still talk like a slave! I don't know if there is anything wrong with black or white power as long as it is doing good things for the benefit of and well being of some or all while not hurting anyone. Do you even remember the argument between Booket T. Washington and WEB DuBois? Or better yet have you heard of these people? Keep writing brother, we will eventually figure out your race, culture and ulterior motive.
Author: Ray Carter
Date: 2005-02-09T14:22:41-06:00

ID: 64242
Comment: I apologize Miss Ladd, but as an African American whose lived in Jackson since birth(Ward 3 to be exact) I know first hand about this guy. Fine, Black Man, then figure out how to express it here without calling someone nasty names. (Come to think of it, that's what folks criticize Stokes for most often.) Do you even remember the argument between Booker T. Washington and WEB DuBois? Yes. But I know you're not talking to me. :-( Glad you're here, Ray. I'm not sure people understand just what a worthy blogger we have in our midst.
Author: DonnaLadd
Date: 2005-02-09T14:42:57-06:00

ID: 64243
Comment: I apologize about my math or arithmatic concerning the years after slavery.
Author: Ray Carter
Date: 2005-02-09T14:49:02-06:00

ID: 64244
Comment: Ok Ray Carter listen up because I'm only gonna say this once.... It's not what you say, it's how you say it. To me, Kenneth Stokes is trying to be something he is not...an Activist. He doesn't know how to get what he wants because he shoots his mouth off too much in a disrespectful tone. It's similar to crying wolf. Once the heat is on him he shuts up because he has too many skeletons in his own closet. I'm not saying he should'nt speak up and fight for the common man as you claim he does, but it's the way he does it. He's no Malcolm, He's no Martin and He damn sure ain't no Medgar but swears up and down he's doing his people justice. But I don't buy it. Call me set in my ways but I'm 46 and I haven't seen NO CHANGE in Ward 3 since I've been alive. a few paved roads here and there but that's it. Now he wants to bring a true Pro-Black Activist to town knowing damn well the whole city just went into an uproar over the Skinner incident. To me, Ol'Kenny is just outdated. It's time for a change. Ray Carter, do you live in Ward3? have you been through there lately? IT'S A MESS
Author: Black Man
Date: 2005-02-09T16:18:21-06:00

ID: 64245
Comment: oh and Ray before you get back on your soapbox and respond, let's remember who controls the money strings in Mississippi. WHITE PEOPLE and in order to get that money flowing we need Black leaders who will work to loosen those strings because Mississippi GOT money. It's the rest of the USA that thinks we are poor as hell. I have no problem getting things done with the white people I deal with because they know I mean business but I won't disrespect them to get my business done. Malcolm, Martin AND Medgar all realized later in life that we gotta learn to live as neighbors and not enemies.
Author: Black Man
Date: 2005-02-09T16:33:01-06:00

ID: 64246
Comment: A lot of the flack Stokes is getting is self-induced, yes. He can stand to take a few "coping with others" classes at Hinds Community College.
Author: Black Man
Date: 2005-02-09T16:36:41-06:00

ID: 64247
Comment: I lived in Jackson for 3 months while between college years. I'm a big fan of Jackson. Yes, I have driven lately through Ward Three and elsewhere in Jackson for parades, events, and for visits to schools, friends and acquantances. I make it a habit to drive through poor neighborhoods in evry city that I visit in order to view, know, and evaluate how poor people live everywhere I visit. I see good and bad things in all of those neighborhoods and sorely wish banks, lending institutions, and others would spend money to fix up the neighborhoods and give the residents greater hope.
Author: Ray Carter
Date: 2005-02-09T16:48:14-06:00

ID: 64248
Comment: Ray: I am curious as to your above question as to whether Mr. Stokes has earned all the "hatred and vilification" [sic] that "many whites" have for him. While I don't hate Mr. Stokes, after all I don't know him personally, but he, like anyone else, is going to have to live with the consequences of his publicly-made bigoted statements. That is true for anyone of any color, culture, or gender.
Author: buckallred
Date: 2005-02-09T16:58:27-06:00

ID: 64249
Comment: Goodbye Black Man!
Author: Ray Carter
Date: 2005-02-09T17:15:20-06:00

ID: 64250
Comment: Buck, I agree. Accept my apology for haste and misspellings. Are you not curious about anything black man or anybody else has said?
Author: Ray Carter
Date: 2005-02-09T17:31:06-06:00

ID: 64251
Comment: Well yes, the back-and-forth between you two is interesting. . . as "black man" purports to live in Ward 3, I was surprised to hear him criticize Stokes, as Ward 3 residents have typically, to my knowledge, fiercely defended Stokes and his antics. If "black man" really is who he claims to be, then I hope he will argue his position under his real name. I think it is extremely counter-productive for Stokes or any other elected official to publicly make bigoted statements or to threaten to "slap" his fellow elected officials (again, as Stokes has done). That type of behavior will result in worsening the situation, rather than achieving any progress. It is too bad that Stokes has the soapbox that he does (via Ward 3 voters) when there are true leaders like Councilman Crisler, Charles Evers, and Frank Melton making a positive difference in the community. And- if ANYONE has a legitimate reason to hate white people, it would be Evers and not Stokes. Evers has earned my utmost respect for his positive leadership and for not blaming me for what some bigoted white criminals did to his family many years ago. Stokes, by contrast, simply lacks credibility and is not someone I have any respect for.
Author: buckallred
Date: 2005-02-09T17:39:59-06:00

ID: 64252
Comment: I'm more inclined Ray to listen, and consider, the concerns/opinions of an actual resident of Ward 3 regarding the performance of their elected officials than someone who lives, say, in Madison and doesn't really have a dog in the hunt.
Author: Proud To Be Right
Date: 2005-02-09T17:46:50-06:00

ID: 64253
Comment: I'm more inclined Ray to listen, and consider, the concerns/opinions of an actual resident of Ward 3 regarding the performance of their elected officials than someone who lives, say, in Madison and doesn't really have a dog in the hunt. If living in Ward 3 were the standard for criticism of Stokes, I think the town would be much quieter about now. ;-) I personally think anyone has the right to discuss the performance of any public official -- even if it's not up to them whether he stays or not. I also thought Black Man said he no longer lives in Ward 3, but I might be mistaken. I don't think Stokes would disagree, by the way, that Ward 3 is "a mess," although he might disagree on the reasons, rightly or wrongly. I certainly don't agree with everything he is doing to help the problem (the curfew, for instance), but I do have to admit that he is trying in many ways. That's more than I can say for many people in (and outside) the city. What I'd like to hear from everyone are positive solutions to problems in Ward 3 and the rest of the city, whether you live here or not, rather than just political whining, which dominates the news (the corporate media eat that shit alive). I just came from a great meeting at Lanier High School where we're working with the students to try to start programs to help them instill positive attitudes in their school community, despite such hideous media coverage. I didn't hear one person around that table whine; it was a great discussion and brainstorming of ideas. Hopefully, some good will come of it. And, by the way, some of us live in that ward, others don't. And, interestingly, no one seemed to care. Imagine that.
Author: DonnaLadd
Date: 2005-02-09T18:06:48-06:00

ID: 64254
Comment: Re: Banks, fixing up the neighborhoods. I hate to look like a sepratist (sp?), but what about the black-owned banks role in this? Even though redlining (refusing to lend money in poor neighborhoods due to the neighborhood's income characteristics rather than the individual loan-seeker's creditworthiness) has been illegal for a while, the fact still remains that poor people simply lack creditworthiness to take out even relatively small home improvement loans. Perhaps some kind of public-private partnership between banks and government can provide low-interest loans for those seeking to improve their homes (and hence neighborhoods). But this alone won't be enough - so now we look at my favorite tangent -- the area's cultural attitudes. Doing something as simple as reading books and truly informative magazines around the children can work wonders (This is not a race-based comment. Lord knows even many middle and upper middle class whites sorely need to take this advice too ... speaking as one from a white middle class family). Encourage the kids to paint, play an instrument, write poetry or stories, or get some other productive hobby. Better yet, people need to do these things themselves. I myself am emotionally enriched through reading about politics, astronomy, history, humanities, and a wide array of other topics. That alone will work wonders for a community - regardless of ethnic background. In the long run, I think it will also make the area more attractive to general economic development.
Author: Philip
Date: 2005-02-09T18:54:00-06:00

ID: 64255
Comment: All good comments, Philip. Another vital component is to stop making assumptions that kids in poor neighborhoods and go to schools like Lanier are "bad kids." They're not. The most impressive young people I know in the city go to Lanier, and I know some impressive young people. I just came from a meeting today with themóand they are fed up with the way the media cover them, and the stereotypes about them. They are working hard over there; people need to help them and give them a chance. Talk about cultural attitudes -- the stereotypes about young people are just horrifying.
Author: DonnaLadd
Date: 2005-02-09T22:06:34-06:00

ID: 64256
Comment: I lived in Jackson for 3 months while between college years. I'm a big fan of Jackson. Yes, I have driven lately through Ward Three and elsewhere in Jackson for parades, events, and for visits to schools, friends and acquantances. I make it a habit to drive through poor neighborhoods in evry city that I visit in order to view, know, and evaluate how poor people live everywhere I visit. I see good and bad things in all of those neighborhoods and sorely wish banks, lending institutions, and others would spend money to fix up the neighborhoods and give the residents greater hope. 3 months? Well then I must apologize to you kind sir. I thought you were one of those homegrown residents that rallies behind Ol'Kenny because that's all they know. You sound like a college student that came through our great city and fell in love with it and want to contribute to it's potentially massive future. I'm cool with that. Therefore I won't be debating with you as hard anymore because now knowing that you haven't had enough years of Jackson in you I can't hold you accoutable on things you might say in the future. And concerning the rest of your comment. I agree totally.
Author: Black Man
Date: 2005-02-10T08:43:08-06:00

ID: 64257
Comment: I'm more inclined Ray to listen, and consider, the concerns/opinions of an actual resident of Ward 3 regarding the performance of their elected officials than someone who lives, say, in Madison and doesn't really have a dog in the hunt - Proud to be Right . Having not lived in Ward 3 for only about 6 years gives me plenty right to speak on the issue because I'm pretty sure nothing has changed. So I hate to say it but you should be Proud to be Wrong on this one. good day.
Author: Black Man
Date: 2005-02-10T08:52:59-06:00

ID: 64258
Comment: I'm pretty sure nothing has changed. "Pretty sure"? Is this a comedy routine? Gentlemen, if we could simply concentrate on the issues at hand rather than have a pissing contest about who is more qualified to talk about Ward 3, we might get somewhere. This is really getting funny. Rather than concentrating on each other, please stick to the issues.
Author: DonnaLadd
Date: 2005-02-10T09:02:15-06:00

ID: 64259
Comment: Well yes, the back-and-forth between you two is interesting. . . as "black man" purports to live in Ward 3, I was surprised to hear him criticize Stokes, as Ward 3 residents have typically, to my knowledge, fiercely defended Stokes and his antics. If "black man" really is who he claims to be, then I hope he will argue his position under his real name. Why does it bother everybody that I use Black Man as my chat name? It is really that important for you to know my "real name" for us to have a discussion? Are you creeped out that someone uses a different chat name than you? for all I know your name isn't buckallred. Can you people please get a life and focus on what's important instead of what's trivial.
Author: Black Man
Date: 2005-02-10T09:05:28-06:00

ID: 64260
Comment: Pretty sure"? Is this a comedy routine? budump dump...I'll be here all week..lol Gentlemen, if we could simply concentrate on the issues at hand rather than have a pissing contest about who is more qualified to talk about Ward 3, we might get somewhere. This is really getting funny. Rather than concentrating on each other, please stick to the issues. Best idea I've heard since we started.
Author: Black Man
Date: 2005-02-10T09:08:15-06:00

ID: 64261
Comment: I don't think it bothers anyone that you use "Black Man." However, since you don't use your real name, there is always the possibility that you are misrepresenting yourself as others have done here (you wouldn't believe who try to be whom around here), even as you're challenging other folks' credibility based on their race and where they live; thus, you've created that climate for yourself. I don't think you are misrepresenting who you are, but that skepticism could be at the root of some of the other comments. And as long as you don't use your real name, that skepticism will be there no matter who you are. Part of it. As for Buck, I don't believe he's represented anything particular about himself, or where he lives, to support his arguments as you have done. So I don't think it matters in his case. And from what I understand, that is his real name.
Author: DonnaLadd
Date: 2005-02-10T09:11:42-06:00

ID: 64262
Comment: Best idea I've heard since we started. Good. Then, try it, Black Man.
Author: DonnaLadd
Date: 2005-02-10T09:12:46-06:00

ID: 64263
Comment: I don't think it bothers anyone that you use "Black Man." However, since you don't use your real name, there is always the possibility that you are misrepresenting yourself as others have done here (you wouldn't believe who try to be whom around here), even as you're challenging other folks' credibility based on their race and where they live; thus, you've created that climate for yourself. I don't think you are misrepresenting who you are, but that skepticism could be at the root of some of the other comments. And as long as you don't use your real name, that skepticism will be there no matter who you are. I assure you I'm not misrepresenting myself and I don't think I've challenged anyone's credibility based on their race and where they live. If so point it out email it to me, I'll print it and then eat my words. I'm someone who grew up in Ward 3 and that is unchallengable. The facts are there. You agreed as well as stated that Stokes agrees. The area is a mess. did I lie? As for Buck, I don't believe he's represented anything particular about himself, or where he lives, to support his arguments as you have done. So I don't think it matters in his case. And from what I understand, that is his real name. Ok. Well, maybe he's not a Jacksonian and hasn't live in those areas to have an opinion. Maybe he's an instigator of distraction. Maybe he's Frank Melton using a fake chat name. who knows for sure? All I know is this discussion is about Stokes, not me, and it seems like you all strayed off the path of the discussion. Now, as for solutions, I gave a couple in my earlier rants. Please go back and and let's talk about those and let's see if we can get some progress out of this regressive situation that's emerging. If not, why are we here?
Author: Black Man
Date: 2005-02-10T09:27:14-06:00

ID: 64264
Comment: It is a good point to add that Buck is, indeed, making assumptions about Ward 3 and the views of black people in his comments--or at least admitting his own stereotypes (which is good). It is not fair to say that all African Americans, or residents of Ward 3, are Kenneth Stokes supporters.
Author: DonnaLadd
Date: 2005-02-10T09:27:24-06:00

ID: 64265
Comment: Black Man, YOU are the one who is complaining about other people's credentials (such as Ray, or white folks) when they challenge your opinions. So why not right here agree to STOP DOING THAT and stay on point -- whether it's you or someone else doing it? Agreed? Please allow the discussion to stay on point.
Author: DonnaLadd
Date: 2005-02-10T09:30:30-06:00

ID: 64266
Comment: thanks Ladd. The people he's speaking of are the ones who are way too old to care. they just want to make sure their health benefits are safe and their pacemakers have batteries. But on the contrary, there's a demographic in Ward3 between the ages of 18-55 who are literally fed with the the drugs running wild and are literally hanging their jaws in awe at how Stokes is M.I.A. on the tougher issues. Raising hell about the flag is an ok battle to fight but it's not as important and making sure young Tyrone can make it to school before he gets shot. Or better yet make sure Ms. Old Lady can be able to sit outside on her porch again and smile instead of locking her doors and crying Lord help us. It's time for a change. Here's another one of my brilliant solutions: Family Night Out - A Day where neighbors go up and down their street betwwen say the hours 5pm to 6pm meeting all their neighbors. This alone will instantly create a neighborhood watch program because everybody knows everybody on their street and will be able to recognize suspicious people moving in and out of the area. I hope you're reading this Kenny?
Author: Black Man
Date: 2005-02-10T09:41:26-06:00

ID: 64267
Comment: Black Man, YOU are the one who is complaining about other people's credentials (such as Ray, or white folks) when they challenge your opinions. I just can't sit here and allow you to attack my character like that. I haven't complained or attacked anyone in here. I'm merely discussing the topic at hand "Street Talk: What do you think about Councilman Kenneth Stokes" and in turn asking questions while answering questions all the while being subliminal attacked on my own credibility, detracting the entire discussion. Proud to be Right said he would rather hear from someone who lives in the area. Well, I'm one who has and I know the guy(KS) well just from living here(Mississippi) all my life. *SIGH* But I'm dropping it now and I would appreciate an apology from you for those comments, Ms. Ladd. Where all grown ups here.
Author: Black Man
Date: 2005-02-10T09:52:03-06:00

ID: 64268
Comment: At least you are indiscriminate Black Man. You shoot everyone; those who agree or disagree with you. I was pointing out to Attorney Man Ray, who lives in Madison, that I am more inclined to listen and consider the opinions of someone who has been there (you in this case) than someone who has not (meaning Ray). But since you fire first and ask questions second, I guess you were unable to pick up on that. Ladd, you need to read also. I wasn't trying to place any prior restraints on Ray's "right to discuss". Only noting my inclination. And aren't you the one who so readily dismisses non-Jacksonians when they complain or bemoan some aspect or another about our city. Tell me you haven't time and time again. Ray gets a selective pass, I guess.
Author: Proud To Be Right
Date: 2005-02-10T10:15:09-06:00

ID: 64269
Comment: I have to agree with you Black Man on your comments concerning old folks not being able to sit on their porches smiling, old folks (and other folks) not being able to walk the streets safely, and I add, children not being safe to play in the streets. It breaks my heart terribly that many black neighborhoods are invaded, inundated and stymied by drug lords and other criminals. All of us should be willing to do anything we can to help with this situation, especially our leaders and the police - even outsider like many of us. As I drive through poor neighborhoods I can't escape thinking about old folks and children in particular. But, I think of other people too who deserve to be free of crime and fear. Sometimes I even feel guilty for living in a gated community outside of Jackson. As I feel more quilty for living where I live, and not doing more, I often email my old college friends to talk to them about whether we are sellouts and whether we're doing our parts as blacks folks who escaped poverty through luck, blessings, hard works, timing, and most of all, due to the greater sacrifices of others. I urge them also to never forget where we came from and who we were. Lastly, I tell them that if we aren't doing anything to help others who were/are like, and unlike us, then we're no damn good. And so to appease our guilt, respond to duty, or wahtever we're doing; we give money to Tougaloo College, tutor at schools, act as mentors, and so on - all too little, but we're trying.
Author: Ray Carter
Date: 2005-02-10T10:18:49-06:00

ID: 64270
Comment: Black Man, we are all grown-ups here; thus, I urge you to re-read your comments above to see how this thread went down the road of who is qualified to speak about Stokes/Ward 3. I don't see anything to apologize for, although I'm certainly not averse to the idea of apologies when I misspeak. Proud, either you've missed my point, or it's too wound up in this sprawling thread, which is the danger of them getting so long. My point to Black Man is NOT that you shouldn't complain if you don't live/didn't grow up in/don't visit/don't have any idea where the hell Ward 3 is. It is that much of this Stokes dust-up is coming from outside Ward 3 -- and that's OK with me. I think we should ALL discuss what is going on within our city: whether we've lived in Ward 3 a few months, several years, a lifetime or not at all. He has tried to say that his Ward 3 cred outranks others; thus, it seems, trying to squelch other folks' points. That's what I"m trying to get away from -- although I do see some validity in the point that people who never ever step foot in Ward 3, or haven't in years, may not know what's going on there today. That does not, however, mean that they should not be interested in helping. Now to your point about "dismissing" non-Jacksonians' complaints about the city -- that has not been my point, either. It's not dismissal; it is pointing out that many people who do not live in the city or visit it after dark or such and then make non-factual statements should not be the loudest voices. It is not my point to squelch "outside" voices; it is to get the voices of residents to be louder -- and fact-based and focused on positive action rather than whining. There is a BIG difference. It's the whole counter-offensive-speech-with-more-speech argument. Unfortunately, some people will just try to say that calling for more speech, or countering the initial speech, is trying to squelch the initial speech: that's intellectually lazy, and rather missing the point of free speech.
Author: DonnaLadd
Date: 2005-02-10T10:40:48-06:00

ID: 64271
Comment: NOW, as the moderator here (grin), I think this thread needs to focus next on Ward 3, and what can be done to help the problems there. Black Man, I have a question for you: What street did you live on when you were growing up there, and how has it changed today? This isn't about cred; it's to "go upstream" and see if we can figure out what exactly has gone wrong ("white flight" is too vague, as is "too much crime") and then come up with possible solutions. What do you believe, specifically, needs to happen? You've mentioned Family Night Out as an idea already. Is this something that is happening already in Ward 3? I personally have attended a number of family-oriented events there, most involving Stokes; how often do they happen? What is being done rightly or wrongly? Let's get specific here and so some good.
Author: DonnaLadd
Date: 2005-02-10T10:46:15-06:00

ID: 64272
Comment: Also, after noting how long this puppy took to load after hitting "submit," this seems to be a good time to close this thread and move it to a forum; we'll call it "How to Help Ward 3." Feel free to open others over there if you'd like, including another one to complain/praise/discuss Kenneth Stokes. This one has just gotten too long.
Author: DonnaLadd
Date: 2005-02-10T10:55:57-06:00

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