Jackson Free Press

Update, Aug. 2, 2006—Today, The Clarion-Ledger published a statement (see below in Comments) saying that Courtney Taylor's work will no longer appear in the newspaper. We guess that answers the question posed by an astute reader on the Ledge forums accusing Taylor of plagiarizing a Southern Living article. The post starts:

Five days ago, I notified the Managing Editor of the Clarion-Ledger that I had just discovered plagiarism on the web site in the form of an article by Courtney Taylor in the Food section of the site. Ms. Taylor's article on fried green tomatoes, published last Wednesday, July 26th, mirrored the circumstance described in an article on fried green tomatoes by Donna Florio of Southern Living magazine's web site, and Ms. Florio's article has been in place on the Southern Living site for several weeks. Ms. Taylor went so far as to use Ms. Florio's phrases and sentence structure, and she also used the sequence of events first described in Ms. Florio's article, only changing the names of the participants, in an obvious attempt to appear to be original. By Thursday afternoon, July 27th, Ms. Taylor's article had been replaced by another under her byline on the subject of mustard.

Previous Commentsshow

Certainly, IF this happened the way the poster describes, The Clarion-Ledger needs to issue an explanation to the readers, not just quietly remove the piece from the Web site. Of course, they never said a word about Marshall Ramsey's similar cartoon to Darren's in the JFP, not did Mr. Ramsey write me back when I e-mailed him about it. So maybe silence on such matters is their policy.

DonnaLadd

Jul 31 2006

Note that the link to Mr. Ramsey's cartoon no longer works, either. I have a print-out around here somewhere. I feel confident I could scan and post it under "fair use" rules under the circumstances. I'll look for it.

DonnaLadd

Jul 31 2006

Given the latter case, I saw the both and chalked it up to "Great Minds Think Alike", given that I don't find any malice. I don't know how far ahead Darren does his OpEd Cartoons, and given Marshall's blog he seems to work a couple of days ahead, unless something topical comes up quick. Her Story is still there. :) I dunno. Unless She and this Donna lady are the same person, someone's got a couple of questions to answer.

Ironghost

Aug 1 2006

Well, in that link-wreck anyway...

Ironghost

Aug 1 2006

Darren's was published a couple weeks before Mr. Ramsey's cartoon, for what it's worth. It was a pretty specific joke, but hey. I still maintain that they would have pitched a fit had the "coincidence" been reversed. Otherwise, thanks for the link. Let's put them side by side (and, yes, I will print and screenshot): Donna Florio's piece in Southern Living Courtney Taylor's piece in the Ledge Ready, set, analyze.

DonnaLadd

Aug 1 2006

Oh, my friggin' word. We're not talking about subtle likenesses here: Here is the beginning of Florio's piece: I'm embarrassed to admit this, but before I came to work at Southern Living, I had never tasted a fried green tomato. Call me deprived, even ignorant, but for some reason I had never found the gumption to sample this traditional Southern favorite. To my narrow way of thinking, tomatoes ought to be red and fresh, not green and fried. That all changed one day at tasting. Test Kitchens professional Vanessa McNeil was frying a mess of tomatoes, pulling them out of the skillet in batches just as the Foods staff arrived to sample the day's recipes. "Y'all please eat these right away," she said. "I want you to taste them while they're still hot." They were golden and crisp, with a pleasingly rugged exterior. [...] I was hooked. I vowed to learn what it takes to make a great fried green tomato. So I obtained the fine recipe you see here, then asked Vanessa for some pointers. It seems she has frying down to an art. "I use a cast-iron skillet at home, but have found that any good, heavy skillet works fine," she says. "Actually, an electric skillet is great--it keeps an even heat, so the tomatoes all cook nicely. ______ OK, here's Taylor's beginning: I'm embarrassed to admit this, but before I co-wrote The Southern Cook's Handbook with my cousin Bonnie Carter, I had never tasted a properly fried green tomato. Call me deprived, but for some reason I had never found the gumption to master this traditional Southern favorite in my own kitchen. And the soggy, greasy examples I sampled in restaurants were certainly no motivation to take a crack at it. To my narrow way of thinking, tomatoes were to be served at their best - red and fresh, not green and fried. That all changed when we were testing recipes. Bonnie was frying tomatoes, pulling them out of the skillet in batches just as I arrived to sample the recipe and to peruse our weekly editorial notes. "You have to eat these right out of the skillet while they're hot," she said, handing me a plate and a fork. To my amazement, I found her fried green tomatoes golden and crisp with a finely ground cornmeal exterior. [...] I was hooked. I wanted to learn how to fry these at home, so I watched and took notes. It seems Bonnie has Southern frying down to an art. She recommends a cast-iron skillet for those who have some frying experience or a heavy electric skillet with a thermostat. "It keeps the grease at an even temperature." I am choking with disbelief here. Virginia, we've got a problem.

DonnaLadd

Aug 1 2006

**Otherwise, thanks for the link. Let's put them side by side . . . Ready, set, analyze.** <--ladd I did. It's plagiarism. Pure and simple...and stupid! Courtney and the C-L ought to be thoroughly ashamed.

Kacy

Aug 1 2006

Agreed. This is horrendous. Many writers and columnists have been shamed out of this business due to much less-blatant plagiarism. What kind of shop are they running?

DonnaLadd

Aug 1 2006

Maybe putting more time into their product and less into trying to run us small folk out of town would pay off in myriad ways.

DonnaLadd

Aug 1 2006

That said, a writer can screw a publication. It's not like you can check everything they write against everything ever published. The real question is: How are they going to handle this now? Upright and honest? Or by deleting stuff from their Web site?

DonnaLadd

Aug 1 2006

The more I think about it, the more stunned I am. Did Courtney seriously think than nobody who reads the C-L ever reads Southern Living? I mean, as crass and unethical as it is, it'd make more sense if Courtney wrote for the Nashua (NH) Democrat! Begeezus, there's a Southern Living magazine at every supermarket checkout in Jackson!

Kacy

Aug 1 2006

I know. Talk about a cross-over readership. I knew an editor once -- a talented guy that I liked -- who simply changed the name on a story published by a neighboring newspaper owned by the same company and made it his own byline. Story ran word for word. Huge scandal, of course. Now he's out of journalism, because you don't get to do this when you get caught doing that. I don't get it. At all. It's not like she can say she's new to the biz or something. She's been doing it a long time and is a decent writer. One of their better ones (I guess; who knows now?). I suppose curious bloggers could comb the archives and see what else they find like they did with Jayson Blair. Y'all let me know if something interesting turns up. ;-) But I guess the Ledge has its own Blair situation on its hands. Let's see how they handle this one.

DonnaLadd

Aug 1 2006

The only possible excuse here could be that somehow Ms. Taylor's piece was written first and cribbed by Ms. Florio. We'll see who we can get on the phone in the next couple days about this. But at the moment, it looks bad for the Ledger, as Ms. Taylor's piece was just published, it seems.

DonnaLadd

Aug 1 2006

Anybody have Courtney's cookbook? She didn't tell this story in there, did she? Trying to cover the bases here.

DonnaLadd

Aug 1 2006

Two words.... Shattered Glass

pikersam

Aug 1 2006

Pike, I'm embarassed to say that your two words took me a few seconds to compute. But, I got it. That does bring me to another question: It's bizarre that the quotes are so similar. How did the plagiarizer get such similar quotes? And are they real? How deep do these waters run?

DonnaLadd

Aug 1 2006

I'm trying to track down a cookbook now. Nothing on Amazon. But, from the reviews I think I am going to pick this cookbook up. ;-)

pikersam

Aug 1 2006

Well s**t, my whole world is crumbling. Courtney Taylor was my favorite writer in the 'Ledge. I sure hope that she wrote her article first- there doesn't seem to be any question that someone copied someone... On another note, I am unable to access the C-L forums since switching to Opera- anybody have any tips on what to do?

Rico

Aug 2 2006

Well...that didn't take long. Looks like Courtney Taylor is history in the CL. http://www.clarionledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?Category=FEAT02

James Hester

Aug 2 2006

A flurry of posts have appeared in the forum area of the Clarion-Ledger web site in regard to the plagiarism controversy surrounding Courtney Taylor and in response to my post in the forum, and many of the posts are filled with insults, negativity and vitriol directed toward me. Some of the posters suggest that I am really an employee of the Free Press, hiding behind a masquerade in an effort to conceal my identity. A couple of posts refer to "JFP" and to "Ladd", and I asked one poster to explain those references, as I do not live in Mississippi and am unfamiliar with the terms. When I did not receive a reply, I visited www.ipl.org and saw the link to the Jackson Free Press, and I understood instantly the reference to JFP. Once I visited the web site, I saw the name Ladd in numerous forum postings. Last week on July 26th, I detected the plagiarism as I read Ms. Taylor's article, after first reading an article by Donna Florio of Southern Living. I emailed Don Hudson, Managing Editor of the Clarion-Ledger, and he responded quickly that he would look into the situation immediately. The following morning, July 27th, I telephoned Donna Florio, but she was away from her desk at that point. On the afternoon of July 27th, Ms. Florio returned my call, and she asked if I could fax her a copy of Ms. Taylor's article. At the time we were speaking, the article had been removed from the Clarion-Ledger web site and replaced by another article under Ms. Taylor's byline on the subject of sandwiches. Ms. Florio called me the morning of July 28th, after receiving my fax, and she said the article was "breathtaking". She told me that she had just received a phone call from the Features Editor of the Clarion-Ledger who expressed extreme displeasure about the article Ms. Taylor had submitted for publication. Ms. Florio's words were that Southern Living was "keeping its fingers on the pulse" of the situation. I posted comments in the Clarion-Ledger forum about the plagiarism in an effort to bring some clarity to the issue, and for the most part, my comments have been poorly received. As I explained to Mr. Hudson in my email, I do not take any pleasure from revealing my discovery, but I could not have remained silent on this issue.

nabokovsmuse

Aug 2 2006

People always blame the messenger, nabokovsmuse, don't let it get to you. Ms. Taylor is the one who made the mistake here, not you.

Izzy

Aug 2 2006

Don't sweat it nabo. As unfortunate as it was for Ms. Taylor, you did the right thing by pointing it out. Also, I guess you realize now there are a contingent of men and women in Jackson that are obsessed with Donna Ladd, the editor of this weekly. It is a shame you felt the brunt of their anger. The only reason I can gather they obsess over Ladd is that they secretly have a crush on her! ;-) BTW: We may have a Chief of Police opening soon (hopefully) if any of you want to apply!

pikersam

Aug 2 2006

Laurel and pikersam, your kind remarks are a breath of fresh air. Thanks so much. As for the travails of your police chief, I can empathize with the citizens of Jackson who disagree with his approach to law enforcement and with his apparent zeal to create controversy. Did you know that he was the subject of a recent article on the LA Times web site? He's making quite a spectacle of himself, or so it seems.

nabokovsmuse

Aug 2 2006

nabokovsmuse...it is indeed sad that those outside of our town can so easily mistake our mayor for our police chief. Our police chief is in fact Shirlene Anderson. i hope that she has the integrity to stand down due to a recent event involving the mayor. She recently fired three police officers for beating a man in handcuffs. The mayor turned around and reinstate the three officers stating that he wouldn't let "some thug" ruin these good mens lives. I may be foolish here but good men don't beat another in handcuffs...and incidentally the "thug" was never convicted of a crime. Thanks for participating in the activities of our city and thanks for sharing your opinion. Thanks also for taking the time to set straight the issue of the plagiarism.

daniel johnson

Aug 2 2006

So what's the solution? Should she be fired for her plagiarism?

Jeff Lucas

Aug 2 2006

Glad you landed over here, Nabo. Your post on the Ledge forum is the way we knew about this—and, frankly, had you not posted there and then we picked up on it, they might have tried to keep it quiet. Good work, and we hope you hang out a bit over here when you have time. Let's just say the discussion level here is quite different than on the sites where personal insults drown out everything out. We don't allow that here. As you know, plagiarism is very serious in our business, and this was an extreme example. The Clarion-Ledger says the following on their Web site today: To our readers Several passages that appeared in Courtney Taylor's column on fried green tomatoes on July 26 should have been attributed to an article in Southern Living magazine. The writer did not attribute the information. Taylor's work no longer will appear in The Clarion-Ledger. Truth is, they're punting on how serious this was; it wasn't an "attribution" issue, being that the whole thing reads as if it was shaped and lifted directly from Florio's piece. You "attribute" when you use a fact that someone else has put out there, or quote them directly, or—as so oftens happens in Jackson—when another publication breaks a story (like, say, crime stats) and then you follow it up. Seldom does The Clarion-Ledger even bother with that kind of 101 attribution, preferring instead to say that[ the information was "obtained by The Clarion-Ledger," without saying where it was "obtained" from. It's such low class not to be willing to attribute other media when they get to a story first. We do it all the time with them because, well, it's no skin off our back when other media get to a story first. We like it; shows that the media are doing their job. I do have to give credit where it's due to WLBT—they've been the best media outlet about correctly attributing where they pick breaking stories up from. WAPT comes in second, although they've "obtained by" a few times when they could have been more straightforward. One of our biggest goals at the JFP, Nabo, is to raise the bar of journalism in Jackson, and pressure other outlets to follow basic "best practices." We believe they will help rebuild trust in media, and make the community better for us all, as well as those who want to move here and be a part of the exciting renaissance of Jackson. OK, I've talked enough now. Again, thanks for your good sleuthing.

DonnaLadd

Aug 2 2006

OH MY GOODNESS...that's off the chain. I can't believe this. HA!! Donna looks like we have to rely on JFP for originality, good stories and truth....up for the job!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Queen601

Aug 2 2006

ejeff, it sounds like she has been fired. And, yes, that is the typical response. This is like committing murder in the journalism business. Or, say, beating someone in handcuffs if you're a cop. You don't do it, and keep your gig. Also, Nabo, I just looked back at the thread your started on the Ledge forum about this. Lord, I see your point. But, on behalf of not-bottom-feeder Mississippians, I wish to tell you that not all people in our wonderful state are dumbasses who defend plagiarism and think that anyone with half a brain and the willingness to question a corporate newspaper is the editor of the local alternative newsweekly. Overall, the JFP is very popular in Jackson, and among people of all political persuasians, and that really ticks a handful of goobers off. And many of the folks on other forums in Jackson (there are really only two, one set up to trash the JFP) obsessing about me and my paper are people who (a) have been suspended from the JFP site from trolling, and more often, (b) are people who say they have been suspended from the JFP site for "expressing their opinion," who were actually here to pick a fight and belittle others, or who couldn't stand it when someone challenged them. Those people, some "liberal," some "conservative" (trolls come in all flavors), then go around whining about how much we suck; that, in turn, brings us more curious traffic (such as yourself), who then become great participants in conversation. It's win-win for us, but it's hard on the uninitiated when they first bump into the people who SEE DONNA LADD lurking around every corner. Anyway, that's what all that weirdness is about.

DonnaLadd

Aug 2 2006

BTW, note that The Clarion-Ledger did not apologize for this egregious plagiarism. What is it with state and apologies. It's so easy to say: "I'm sorry" or "We apologize for this error." Amazing.

DonnaLadd

Aug 2 2006

Even their mea culpas are poorly written. Several passages that appeared in Courtney Taylor's column on fried green tomatoes on July 26 should have been attributed to an article in Southern Living magazine. The writer did not attribute the information. Taylor's work no longer will appear in The Clarion-Ledger. Do they teach this pass-the-buck passive writing at Gannett school? "The hand of God, today, caused Taylor's work to no longer appear in the Clarion-Ledger." And it's even a split infinitive. :-P

Todd Stauffer

Aug 2 2006

I think it's funny that Goliath can't even write a short note properly: Taylor's work no longer will appear in The Clarion-Ledger. What awkward sentence construction. Strictly speaking, it doesn't make sense to say that something "no longer will".

Brian C Johnson

Aug 2 2006

I'm surprised they didn't blame Gannett News Service. ;-D This deserves an editor's note, apologizing directly to readers and to Ms. Florio and to Southern Living. The Clarion-Ledger is going to look cowardly and arrogant if they don't take this on directly rather than this passive garbage. It should go on page 1 and have Agnew's byline on it. Now, what is that point about needing an ombudsman? I wonder if she's still going to sign her cookbook in Natchez this weekend? The weird thing is that the quotes in the piece that so mirrored the other person's quotes in the first piece were, supposedly, from her cousin and co-author of her cookbooks. Was she in on this, too, or did Ms. Taylor make up those quotes? We'll probably never know, but man, oh, man.

DonnaLadd

Aug 2 2006

Also, reading that thread, somebody ought to tell that whiny little burton, the former JFP troll, that you ought not to accuse a company of putting out false information (in this case, our distribution numbers), without having evidence to back up your assertions. Otherwise, he's libeling our company, and it's not like his identity is unknown to us. It's also interesting to note that The Clarion-Ledger is allowing him to do that on there. That's the kind of shop they run, I guess. Meantime, I know it surprises no one here to know that we can back up our distribution assertions, and our readership figures are measured and published by the national Media Audit organization, for one, just as The Clarion-Ledger's are.

DonnaLadd

Aug 2 2006

Donna, Donna, Donna, What can I say except you stay on your job. How can you possible keep up with all of this.? You are on a mission to make Saints out of the Clarion Devils. For so long, they have convinced this community that there is an elephant hiding under the green on the pool table. The cover has been pulled and there is no elephant hiding - It is the 'ledger.

justjess

Aug 2 2006

who or what exactly is Burton?

Kingfish

Aug 2 2006

If they had attributed the article correctly, there wouldn't have been any reason for Ms Taylor's byline to appear on it.

Ironghost

Aug 2 2006

At least they acted swiftly in dealing with it. I'd like to think they became aware of it before it was mentioned on the C-L forums, but I doubt it.

Jeff Lucas

Aug 2 2006

Well, Nabo said she talked to the managing editor, presumably Don Hudson. That doesn't mean they would have gone public with it, though—until, that is, Nabo went public with it and then we picked up her thread. Burton is an old troll here, Kingfish, who defended The Clarion-Ledger scheme and accused us of doctoring photos of the racks of our papers they left in the rain. Now, he's over on the Ledge forums, singlehandedly driving us more traffic. That part is fine and funny—but he is on different terrain when he publicly accuses us of doctoring business information, which he cannot prove, because it is a flat lie. No surprise, because he tried to do something similar here, but that wasn't as serious as accusing us of lying about our readership and circulation on The Clarion-Ledger's site. That piece of libel could hurt our business, should anyone possibly take him serious, and that's going to make us ornery. He is not, by the way, an employee of the Ledge.

DonnaLadd

Aug 2 2006

Someone just sent me a link to a Courtney Taylor piece in the Hattiesburg American today. They wouldn't have thought the community was dumb enough not to notice if they just moved her to another Gannett paper, would they? Out of site, out of mind, and all that. Surely not.

DonnaLadd

Aug 2 2006

Anyone know if the plagiarized 'maters piece appeared in the Hattiesburg paper, too? I'm telling you, there is a Gannett News Service joke hiding in here somewhere. (Y'all get my reference, right? Their attempt to pawn Ana Radalat off on Gannett's national wire service in the Meridian case against them and Melton, so that the local paper escapes responsibility for it?)

DonnaLadd

Aug 2 2006

FYI: That article (from H'burg) actually ran in the CL on July 19...

kaust

Aug 2 2006

Ms. Ladd, thanks so much for your pleasant, cordial remarks. This forum is such a refreshing change from the bile being spewed in the Clarion-Ledger web site forum, and most of it is directed at me. There must be a hidden agenda for those who are so vicious and malevolent, but it's not something which will cause me to lose sleep. I agree with your assessment that the Clarion-Ledger appears to be skirting the issue of plagiarism, as evinced in the published message to readers. At the very least, however, the Clarion-Ledger has issued a public statement to shine some light on this situation. I would like to apologize for my error in identifying the mayor of your city as the police chief. I suspect that a double-whammy power of suggestion overcame me, as Jackson's mayor seems to be involved in crime fighting in a rather unorthodox manner, and my boss is the chief of police in our small town. Mea culpa, mea culpa.

nabokovsmuse

Aug 2 2006

No problem, Nabo. Melton certainly *wants* to be seen as the police chief. I agree: At least the Ledge did something. And I'm glad you're getting a different picture of Mississippi than you do on that site. I shudder to think about that forum being people's only look into our state. There are too many misconceptions about us out there already!

DonnaLadd

Aug 2 2006

I just had a funny thought, Ms. Ladd, and I have to share. A couple of the "mental giants" who've posted in the Clarion-Ledger forum wrote that you and I are the same person. Therefore, when I respond to your posts, am I replying to myself, or, when you respond to my posts, are you replying to yourself? It's all so confusing, isn't it? LOL.

nabokovsmuse

Aug 2 2006

Yes, Nabo, because I have nothing better to do with my time than blog with myself. ;-) (Suddenly I'm hearing Billy Idol's "Dancing with Myself" in my head.) What's most hilarious to me about all the folks who speculate that anyone who disagrees with them (or, seemingly, knows how to spell) must be *me* is that anyone who actually knows me understands that it goes against everything that I am to use a fake name. I do this for a living, publicly and under my name. Dumbasses.

DonnaLadd

Aug 2 2006

Thank you, now I have "Blogging with Myself" stuck in my head. Keep it up and I'll post lyrics. :D

Ironghost

Aug 2 2006

Donner, I think you found your food critic. She will probably work cheap right now.

Kingfish

Aug 2 2006

Ms. Ladd, I think you might be interested in this latest post to the thread in the Clarion-Ledger about Taylor. Are you aware of news outlets other than the Free Press publishing articles about this controversy? concerned_journalist Joined: 02 Aug 2006 Posts: 1 Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 5:47 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've just had a chance to review Donna Florio's column and Courtney Taylor's column, and they are almost identical. To downplay this brazen situation by admitting only to "several passages that should have been attributed" is outrageously unethical from a journalistic standpoint. What else has Courtney Taylor written that should have been attributed to others? (You know, she is recognized as an expert in Southern food, and is somewhat of a national figure; that's a fact The Clarion-Ledger really can't hide here.) And what's more, does the newspaper intend to own up to this, as other newspapers have been progressive enough to do? The word is getting out across the country...not just about Courtney's misstep, but mainly about the cover-up of it. I'm not sure which is worse.

nabokovsmuse

Aug 2 2006

Some of you clowns owe Miss Taylor an apology on one point. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1893062295/104-5715046-4803110?redirect=true took about FIVE seconds to find on amazon. the rest of the abuse though, she deserves. ;-)

Kingfish

Aug 3 2006

Funny, I guess the Ledge edited Nabo's original post to add in their "attribution" statement about Taylor from yesterday's paper. Interesting tactic. Maybe they're trying to make it look like they moved quickly on this. Right.

DonnaLadd

Aug 3 2006

seems like I was a little harsh but some posts made it seem as though she had not written a cookbook as she claimed and I was clearing up that confusion.

Kingfish

Aug 3 2006

Oh, I see. I knew she'd written a cookbook. She did seem to be one of the few "writers" at The Clarion-Ledger. It is really sad that someone would consider doing something like this, especially somone who seemed to have talent. Now, her writing career will be in the toilet.

DonnaLadd

Aug 3 2006

Ladd, I think you can get a good food critic on the cheap. I think a publicly chastend MS. taylor would be an excellent addition to your publication.

Kingfish

Aug 3 2006

In fact donna, there is nothing wrong with doing so. There is precedence for being the alternative choice, the antiestablishment, the rebel etc. http://www.allraiders.com/postcards/logo.gif

Kingfish

Aug 3 2006

Well, her style was a little mainstream for us. ;-) And I don't need folks with bad habits. I think I'll stick with our folks. I find it's easier to train and motivate new writers than try to train out bad, passive, flat writing, and the desire to "report" by e-mail.

DonnaLadd

Aug 3 2006

It was tongue in cheek.

Kingfish

Aug 3 2006

I know. ;-)

DonnaLadd

Aug 3 2006

I agree with Ladd that is really sad, and the thought I keep having since I started reading all this about the plagiarized column is: "Man, I bet it sucks to be Courtney Taylor today." I'm a Mississippi native and a journalist working in south Louisiana, and I've been reading her work since I was still in school...since when she was still Courtney Parker. Her prose was sometimes WAY over the top -- she could get comically verbose over "toast with lots of butter" -- but I can roast a chicken that's amazes even me thanks to her writing. Her first cookbook, "How to Eat Like a Southerner and Live to Tell the Tale," is one of the best, most unique cookbooks I've ever seen. Wonderful storytelling. I've never met her, but I've always admired her work. As a journalist, I can't and won't defend plagiarism, especially when it's so blatant as in this case. I don't know why I felt compelled to write because I'm not a blogger, except that the notes of glee I think I detect in this thread bother me; I don't know if that sentiment is there just because the C-L has egg on their face once again. Believe me, I have no love lost for the Clarion-Ledger. But they'll go on doing what it is they do. In a few weeks, this won't even bother them. But Courtney Taylor's career -- at least for the foreseeable future --- is toast. With no butter. She may deserve whatever she gets, but man, it really sucks.

Sky

Aug 3 2006

Well, to the best of my knowledge, nobody here has heard her side of this story. Maybe she is totally innocent, though I can't imagine how that could be. Could she face criminal charges? I have really enjoyed many of her columns over the years- always thought that she was the best the 'Ledge had to offer, but I sure wouldn't want to be her today either...

Rico

Aug 3 2006

The cookbook authored by Ms. Taylor and her cousin has glowing reviews on www.amazon.com, and not having read the cookbook, I certainly will not presume to pass judgment on the recipes contained in their book. The cookbook may contain recipes which are welcome finds for those who have purchased the book or perused it. However, in light of this recent development regarding plagiarism by Ms. Taylor, in which she made direct references to her cousin and their cookbook and to testing recipes for the cookbook, one wonders about the real nature of their purportedly coordinated effort in compiling and testing recipes. One is compelled to disbelieve the scenario described by Ms. Taylor in her column about fried green tomatoes being tested for the cookbook, as she clearly copied the circumstance described in Donna Florio's article for Southern Living, almost word for word. The logical thought progression is to wonder if anything Ms. Taylor writes is a truthful rendering of actual events.

nabokovsmuse

Aug 3 2006

Maybe Ms. Taylor writes for Southern Living also, under an assumed name. Grabbing at straws here...

Rico

Aug 3 2006

Don't know if you were being tongue in cheek, Rico, but I spoke on the phone with Donna Florio at Southern Living the day after Ms. Taylor's article appeared on the Clarion-Ledger web site, and Ms. Florio told me that she has known Ms. Taylor for a number of years. Ms. Florio was adamant that the easiest way for someone to get fired at Southern Living is to plagiarize the work of another, and she was equally as adamant that she would never plagiarize. There is absolutely no evidence to date which would even suggest that Ms. Taylor was employed by Southern Living in any manner, either as an in-house employee or as a contributing writer. The clearest, most convincing evidence that she was not employed by Southern Living is the fact that her association with the Clarion-Ledger has been terminated in public fashion by virtue of the message to readers the Clarion-Ledger has posted on its web site in the Foods section, as a result of her plagiarizing the work of Ms. Florio.

nabokovsmuse

Aug 3 2006

It also seems unlikely that The Clarion-Ledger would just let her go if "Donna Florio" was her pseudonym. We were holding out possibilities the first day on this that the situation was reversed. But when I saw the statement in The Clarion-Ledger, it seemed to be a mea culpa, albeit a weak one. Sky, I'm certainly not gleeful about this. I think it's sad and tragic, and I cannot understand why someone would do something like this (my response to most "crimes," ethical or otherwise). But if we are to have standards in this industry, in which they are steadily lowering under corporate owners, we must hold folks who do this stuff accountable, and take it seriously. I moved this thread to the front page from my blog when I saw the two stories and realized how serious the plagiarism was, no matter which direction it flowed. And at that point, it looked like the Ledge might just try to sweep it under the rug, if Nabo's dealings with them are any indication. I'm said all along that papers can, and do, get screwed by unethical writers, no matter what we do to protect ourselves. The measure of the integrity at The Clarion-Ledger is going to depend on how honest they are about this, and how willing they are to take responsibility and apologize to the readers, to Ms. Florio and to Southern Living magazine. I haven't seen them do that, yet. Someone said about this is going national; where is it being discussed besides here and in the pig pens called forums at the Ledger?

DonnaLadd

Aug 3 2006

I'd still, also, like to hear an explanation of how/why Mr. Ramsey's cartoon was so similar to Darren's of two weeks before, as discussed above. That isn't as blatant a case, but it sounded to me like something that should be addressed as well.

DonnaLadd

Aug 3 2006

I'm still wondering if this is a criminal offense- I know that it is certainly an ethical one. I'd still like to hear her side- maybe a JFP interview is in order...

Rico

Aug 3 2006

No, it's not criminal. We're planning to call the folks involved in this; I would be very surprised if Ms. Taylor speaks with us, though. I suspect she'd prefer to lie low. It's hard to explain away plagiarism, as we've seen repeatedly in the famous cases.

DonnaLadd

Aug 3 2006

Rico, My understanding is that plagiarism is a copyright violation and copyright is not (generally) a criminal offense. It is a civil offense in which Southern Living (or Ms. Fiorino) could bring a civil suit against the Clarion-Ledger and/or Ms. Taylor. I believe the suit would be for damages in the form of economic harm and/or dissolution of value (of, for example, Southern Living Magazine and/or Ms. Fiorino's article). (IANAL - I Am Not A Lawyer)

GSmith

Aug 3 2006

Right. It looks like a copyright violation on steroids.

DonnaLadd

Aug 3 2006

From the Gannett corporate site: FROM DEEP THROAT TO DEEP TROUBLE, HOW SHOULD GANNETT EDITORS REACT WHEN ETHICAL AND PROFESSIONAL ISSUES ARISE? Enjoy.

DonnaLadd

Aug 3 2006

Very interesting. Especially since the "Protecting the Principles" were adopted in 1999 a year or so after Steven Glass was exposed as a fraudulent reporter.

pikersam

Aug 3 2006

Reading through this last night, one part jumped out at me, and seemed particularly ironic in light of The Clarion-Ledger's argument that none of its editors knew that the source of the MBN memo about the pilots was Frank Melton (and, therefore, knew that he had lied in legal documents when they endorsed him). If that is the case, it sounds like they were violating company policy: There are many points under the "Protecting the Principles" document that relate to those "rare circumstances" when unnamed sources are used. One relevant point is this: "(Reporters should) inform sources that reporters will disclose sources to at least one editor. Editors will be bound by the same promise of confidentiality to sources as are reporters." And the key related point is: "Hold editors as well as reporters accountable when unnamed sources are used. When a significant story to be published relies on a source who will not be named, it is the responsibility of the senior news executive to confirm the identity of the source and to review the information provided. This may require the editor to meet the source." In the post-Watergate era in Gannett, the top editor of the newspaper also would have known that W. Mark Felt was Deep Throat. The editor would have been expected (with the reporters) to protect the source's identity and also to make the judgment on whether the information provided by Deep Throat was credible. No doubt the editor today -- in identical circumstances -- would have reached the same conclusion the Post team did and would have had the reporters press ahead, even in the face of denials and considerable government pressure to change course and drop the story. Yes, a Deep Throat still could exist today under the Principles of Ethical Conduct for Newsrooms. But not first without trying to get him on the record. So, under Gannett Corp. policy signed by its newspapers, would not a "top editor" at The Clarion-Ledger have known that Mr. Melton was Ana Radalat's "Deep Throat"? And, if they followed company policy, that then means that when the editors endorsed Mr. Melton for mayor, at least one of them should have known that he was at that time lying to a judge in court documents about leaking that memo that could have ruined several officers' lives and reputations. As I said to Mr. Sneed, The Clarion-Ledger's attorney, on a different thread, my concern isn't whether or not they were protecting the confidentiality of a source—I can understand the need to do that. My question is why the Clarion-Ledger editors would have endorsed Mr. Melton so enthusiastically if they knew he had outright lied to a judge in court documents. ?

DonnaLadd

Aug 4 2006

Brilliant sleuthing, Ladd. Looks like you've got 'em by the [email]b@lls.[/email] Keep squeezin'!

Kacy

Aug 4 2006

WLBT picked up the plagiarism story last night.

DonnaLadd

Aug 4 2006

Drew Snyder was on board even before that. The Mississippi(-connected) blogosphere is alive and well. (And, yes, I admit I like the "diva" reference. Hey, I'm human.) ;-)

DonnaLadd

Aug 4 2006

Ah, and here's an interesting contrast in ways to respond to plagiarism. You can run a big story about it, in which the person doing it apologizes, or you can bury a little box inside and pretend that it was simply an "attribution" issue. All will note from the Gannett document above that pulling information (and that would include PDFs of, say, crime stats) from other publications without attributing where it came from is also considered plagiarism, right? Just pointing that out to the local media world. When someone else breaks a story, folks, attribute it to them. It's simple.

DonnaLadd

Aug 4 2006

It appears that the link to Ms. Taylor's article in the Hattiesburg American is not viable any longer, and when I viewed the home page of the site, I could not find any article by Ms. Taylor. I went to the Forum area of the site and clicked on "Ask the Editor", and someone has posted the following message about the Taylor controversy: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Courtney Taylor--food writer 08/02/06 at 16:20:27 Are you aware that the Clarion Ledger will no longer run work by Courtney Taylor (contributor of today's Summer Salads article in the Hattiesburg American) because one of her pieces was eerily similar (being kind) to a Southern Living article? See below. Quote from today's food section of the Clarion Ledger online: "Several passages that appeared in Courtney Taylor's column on fried green tomatoes on July 26 should have been attributed to an article in Southern Living magazine. The writer did not attribute the information. Taylor's work no longer will appear in The Clarion-Ledger." Web Address for Courtney Taylor's story about Fried Green Tomatoes on July 26: http://www.clarionledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060726/COL0305/6072603 20 Web Address for Southern Living website article by Donna Florio: http://www.southernliving.com/southern/foods/taste/article/0,13676,461443,00.htm l ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Apparently, the Hattiesburg American has decided to remove Ms. Taylor's article from the site. One conclusion which can be drawn at this juncture is that the Gannett organization might be severing their association with Ms. Taylor.

nabokovsmuse

Aug 5 2006

I've been out of the country for a while, and I just heard about Ms. Taylor's obviously plagiarized column. I've read both of the columns. Ya' know, I find the whole thing so sad. I'm a Yankee, and I don't care for Southern food. I like my cooked vegetables crisp and green (not gray), and I'm not about to eat a "deep-fried-boot." However, I have always enjoyed reading Courtney Parker Taylor's food articles. In fact, I wrote a letter to the editor a few years ago extolling her writing abilities. She wrote of family, food, and memories of her Southern upbringing. Unless the other writer stole from her, it's obvious she stole from the other writer. With all of Taylor's years of experience, and writing awards, and accolades, why would she do this? I'm reminded of two other writers, Doris Kearns Goodwin, and Steven Ambrose, both renowned and Pulitizer Prize winning historians, accused of plagiarism. Mr. Ambrose died. However, after her "mea culpa," "confession," shunning by the press, etc. Ms. Goodwin wrote another great book about Lincoln and has "earned" her way back to the TV/literary areas as an expert commentator. I hope Ms. Taylor can do the same. She made a huge mistake. An unnecessary mistake, given her history, and an unexplainable mistake. It's almost spooky--why, with her good writing skills and longstanding reputation in her field, did she do this? Any food writer worth his/her salt can write a column about the differences in salt, peppers, oil, bread, spices, vegetables, meats, potatoes, frying pans, spatulas, cornmeal/panko, dried pastas, cheeses, fish, grilling, whipped cream, key lime pie, fried chicken, marinara sauce, grilled corn, barbeque, etc. on a dime. I hope that Ms. Taylor will hold a press conference, explain what happened, and if at fault, ask for forgiveness. I think that most of her readers will grant her that. Then let her find her way back to cooking and writing again. Sincerely, HDMatthias, MD

HDMatthias, MD

Aug 5 2006

I apologize to the forum for including the superfluous portions of the post in the Hattiesburg American, to which I referred a couple of posts back in this thread. Ater I submitted my post and viewed it, I was appalled at how clumsily I acted in not deleting the portions below the poster's comments. I'm new at posting in forums, so that's my excuse, LOL. Please forgive me while I attempt to "learn my manners".

nabokovsmuse

Aug 5 2006

Cool. Romenesko's MediaNews Blog, THE media blog that journalists obsess over, is linking to this thread right now.

DonnaLadd

Aug 5 2006

New poster here. I have followed this story with interest and much, much sadness, as Courtney Taylor is a very dear friend of mine. I, like some others here, am frantically hoping that there is some really good explanation, while acknowledging that it certainly looks grim. I have debated whether or not to ask her directly "What the HELL...?" but I'm not quite brave enough yet! ... Maybe some rookie in the Southern Style section was assigned to change up her perfectly excellent prose, and got the bright idea to swipe Donna Florio's piece and substitute it? Okay, pretty far-fetched, but from what I've heard about the way those clowns operate down there...

senza

Aug 6 2006

Senza, I read the Wall Street Journal, Times Picayune, BR Advocate, and CL on a daily basis. I can tell you right now as a reader, the CL editing is the absolute worst out of all of those papers.

Kingfish

Aug 6 2006

Funny that the Associated Press isn't even "attributing" how this story broke—on the Ledge's own forums and then on the JFP site. They make it sound like the Ledger found the plagiarism themselves and then ousted her. Sigh.

DonnaLadd

Aug 8 2006

Senza, Courtney is so lucky to have a friend as supportive as you.

Pierre

Aug 8 2006

Well, Ms. Ladd, you yo' ownseff hath done said that it's impossible for editors to check every submission against every prior published work. HELLO---of course the CL was going to make the least fuss about it, deal with it in the least obtrusive, blaring fashion! The little tiny shaded box, which they printed, is probably all they're required by law to do. What would you have them do? Flay themselves publicly? Put it in ten-point- type on the front page? You forget that this is not a home-grown mom-and-pop paper; the CL is well under the corporate thumb of Big Brother Gannett, and none of their employees, from the lowliest student intern to De Big Fo'man Agnew, DARES to take a step until it's run by the PC Police! Again...no excuse for plagiarism, but I think a writer can be driven to madness by the utter idiocy of bosses. She'll prevail. She's too good a writer not to!

senza

Aug 8 2006

Actually, Senza, it's not hard to figure out what to do. It's laid out in Best Practices guides that all editors are aware of; a particular person (like the editor) writes a note to readers, explaining how the error happened and apologizing for it. That helps build trust with readers. And, actually, that's the kind of thing their own corporate tells their papers to do. Yes, this can and does happen to editors, but there is no reason not to step up and deal with it in a straightforward, professional way. It's a serious transgression. I agree with you that bosses, and editors, can be incompetent, and we have indeed seen evidence of that in the pages of The Clarion-Ledger. However, that is never an excuse for plagiarism, especially of this magnitude. Many writers are under severe pressure and never manage to get this sloppy or unethical. I feel compassion for someone who would stoop to such depths; however, I make no excuses for her. There are none, unless she stepped forward and proved she didn't do it, or allow it to be done under her byline. I just hope this was the only time it happened.

DonnaLadd

Aug 8 2006

One way to deal with it would be like USA Today, their sister Gannett paper, did—write a news story about it: A comparison of a July 9, 1998, Washington Post story from Darra Adam Khel, Pakistan, and one published by USA TODAY from the same town on Sept. 2, 1998, show striking similarities, the newspaper learned Tuesday. (Related item: Passages from the two stories) USA TODAY's story carried the byline of Jack Kelley, a foreign correspondent who resigned last week after editors determined he misled them during an internal investigation of some of his stories. USA TODAY Editor Karen Jurgensen said that her review of the two stories "raises significant concerns. We intend to look into it fully and report back to readers." Kelley could not be reached Tuesday, but his lawyer, Lynne Bernabei, rejected any plagiarism charge on Kelley's story, which was about small arms dealers in the town on the Pakistan-Afghanistan border. She said that the dealers in the town talked to a number of foreign correspondents, that Kelley's editors knew he was there based on his expense reports, and that she saw no reason why he would copy facts that were readily available to him. "It makes no sense to me: to go halfway around the world and then copy another reporter's story," Bernabei said. [...] Bernabei said that the newspaper's policies on plagiarism are vague: "They have no good definition; it has to show substantial kidnapping of somebody's work without attribution." Jurgensen said USA TODAY's "best practices" guide, issued in July, states that "staff members do nothing dishonest or illegal to obtain or alter content. We do not use the words, photos or illustrations of another person or publication without attribution." She said the policy was similar in 1998. Jurgensen said that USA TODAY is asking for "readers, sources or employees" to come forward with any "new information" on Kelley's reporting. "We'll look into any story. We'll work our way through this process," she said.

DonnaLadd

Aug 8 2006

This is kinda fun: The Gannett Corp.'s Code of Ethics. (I still say the part about an editor being required to know who anonymous sources are blows the argument out of the water that Clarion-Ledger editors did not know that Frank Melton had lied to a judge in Meridian when they endorsed him for mayor, as discussed in detail on this thread.)

DonnaLadd

Aug 8 2006

What offends me the most about this, as well as The Clarion-Ledger's behavior on other issues, is how much contempt it shows for Mississippians. They just seem to assume that we don't know any better, that we don't know how differently their own company's newspapers act in other markets, that we don't even know the meaning of the word "plagiarism," much less understand how bad it is. They assume we don't know that editors in other markets would talk directly to the readers, admit errors promptly and prominently, tell their reporters not to use the passive voice and to write sentences that make sense and don't insult our intelligence. Instead, this branch of Gannett spends their time trying to squelch competition, while they treat readers like dumbasses. I, for one, am tired of this level of incompetence, arrogance and laziness. We need a better daily newspaper, and we need to demand it.

DonnaLadd

Aug 8 2006

Oh, Ms. Ladd, but most of the CL readers ARE dumbasses! Or, at least, the ones that use the CL as their only source of news and opinion are. Obviously, there are those higher up the evolutionary chain, who mainly use this pathetic rag as an obituary source, but look to better publications for their real information. Just as water seeks its own level, so does a daily local newspaper, and you can "demand" a better one until your eyes pop out, but you ain't a-fixin' to get one, because most of the yokel subscribers are purty dang happy with the pap the CL plops out daily. And as long as the majority of their subscibers are happy, why would the CL want to change, and actually try to use more than one-syllable words and simple sentences? Believe me, they're not being paid enough to be tempted to try real writing. If any of their writers were any good, they'd have moved on long ago. Okay, Courtney Taylor committed journalistic suicide. I might have done the same, if I'd been throwing my pearls before such swine for so long!

senza

Aug 8 2006

I think I have a higher opinion of Mississippians than you do, senza. I know plenty of smart people who muddle through The Clarion-Ledger every day because it's the "daily." And I assure you that their writers and editors get paid more than ours do. ;-)

DonnaLadd

Aug 8 2006

It would be very hard for you NOT to have a higher opinion of (most) Mississippians than I do. I love 'em, bless their pea-pickin' hearts, but if you are holding your breath for them (rank and file) to "demand a better newspaper", well, Gawd hep ya. Not a-fixin' to happen. Again---I think the readers with any sense and education might indeed "muddle through" the ol' CL, for a bit of local news (Road Work Stalled Again!), and to see whose mama died, but they don't really look to it for much else.

senza

Aug 8 2006

Even assuming every description of the CL editing process you are giving as true, Senza, it is hard for me to believe that a nationally published writer like Courtney Taylor would be driven to the point of career suicide. I would just like to know why she would do this . . .

Newt

Aug 8 2006

That's a nice point, senza, but I will say that Courtney never *had* to write for the CL. I always admired her writing while I worked at the CL -- and I admired her writing after I left the CL -- and I'll say here that the woman is talented. Essentially, she could pay the bills some other way than by writing for the CL (which pays crap: let's be honest) if she had to. I'll also say that I've followed Donna Florio's writing as well and, bottom line, Courtney stole something (a lot of something) from Donna -- who happens to be another *very* talented writer. Yes, Courtney may have been under big pressure to produce -- and we've all been in that position, no matter what our job descriptions say we do. Yes, the CL may "mainstream" her writing to the point of mediocrity -- I've never seen an unedited version of her columns so I don't know. I do believe, however, that no matter how bad the deadline pressure might be -- and I know firsthand it can be bad -- and no matter how heavily and to what degree Courtney was edited, there is simply no excuse for copying the work of another writer. Period, end of story. It's horrible, but it's the truth. Stop whining and start doing damage control. It was a mistake, it sucks, but it's out there and there's not much else to be said about it. PS: It is an insult to every reporter/writer who works for the CL (not to mention the readers who subscribe to the paper) to say that the only reason for anyone to pick up the paper is for news about which "road work" is "stalled again." Give these people a break. There might be some jerks there but they're everywhere and besides, people do have to work for a living. I read the New York Times every Sunday morning as if my life depended on it and regardless of what other work I may have pushing recklessly and desperately on my shoulders. But I also read the daily where I live. I recognize the wire stories in the daily -- I see the condensed stories from the NY Times, for example, that are better in their unedited form in the NY Times in its bright blue wrapper in my front yard than in the local daily -- buy my goodness, I would be a globally well-informed but locally hopeless idiot if I didn't also read my daily local paper (obituaries and all). Have some mercy. It just so happens that some (ie: journalists) are more publicly visible (and therefore subject to criticism) than others...And believe me, it is difficult when your job performance is subject to the criticism and approval rating of, oh, everyone in town. I'm not making excuses -- these people chose a career in journalism for a reason -- but I am saying that you might want to take a closer look at yourself before you stand by, recklessly throwing coals at the fire burning everyone else (besides your friend, whom you are understandably trying to save) at the stake.

lori

Aug 9 2006

"If any of their writers were any good, they'd have moved on long ago." Hey, Senza, are you saying the 'good' ones either leave or plagiarize??? I really admire Courtney Taylor's writing...have thought for years she was one of best writers at the C-L, and I hate that this has happened. But your arguments in your friend's defense are pretty lame. I wrote for The Clarion-Ledger for a year and a half in the early 90s. It was an exciting opportunity when I got it because it was chance to work for my hometown newspaper. It turned out to be the worst year and a half of my career. I've never seen such stress and low morale among the reporting staff. Funny thing, though, I didn't copy anybody else's work to cope. I was young, and it seemed like the 'big break' but I left disillusioned about journalism. I considered leaving the profession altogether. It took me a good three years after I left to get my career back on track and to regain enthusiasm for the profession. That being said, there are some extremely talented writers and editors working for the C-L, that I count among MY friends. A few have been there for decades. They're still there not because they haven't had opportunities to go elsewhere, but because they have strong ties to the Jackson area or to the state. The Ledger may pay crap to reporters, but as far as I know, the pay is better than any other daily in Mississippi, so, for a lot of talented, experienced journalists, with families and mortgages, etc., the Ledger is the only show in town. Like, Lori said, if Courtney Taylor was disgusted with editorial policy, she didn't HAVE to work there. She lives in Natchez, right? But, I guess The Natchez Democrat isn't a big enough platform for such a 'nationally-recognized' writer. Me, I'm just grateful my parents are relatively young, and I keep praying they stay healthy because if I ever need to move back to Jackson, I'll dig ditches before I'll work for the C-L again.

Sky

Aug 10 2006

What I'm curious about is why Senza is always writing letters to the CL and trying to get mentioned in people's columns if she is so disdainful of its 'dumbass' readers? (Although her posts here are anonymous, her manic, almost crazed, writing style is instantly recognizable to those who know her. ) Could it be sour grapes because the CL hasn't begged her to write for them?

Pierre

Aug 10 2006

I feel like there's an inside joke I'm not in on here. I don't know who Senza is, and haven't really tried to figure it out. I think one thing to say here is that we need to leave off personal comments and "inside" knowledge about anyone, including Ms. Taylor, especially if you're an anonymous poster. Otherwise, if we've ended up with a bunch of current former Clarion-Ledger folks who just want to duke it out, let's not do that, either. We need to stay focused on the bigger picture.

DonnaLadd

Aug 10 2006

Also, I will reiterate, obviously not all readers of The Clarion-Ledger are "dumbasses"—the problem, to me, is that the paper *treats* readers like dumbasses. I happen to know that there are wonderful employees there, but there are serious morale problems there. It's the leadership, and corporate culture, I have a problem with. That hurts us all.

DonnaLadd

Aug 10 2006

I agree on all counts. The problem is not the writers or the readers--it's the editorial board, and it's especially Ronnie Agnew. The people who run Jackson's paper should be people who actually like Jackson. They don't have to live there, but they don't need to come in with an anti-Jackson, pro-suburbia agenda. Cheers, TH

Tom Head

Aug 10 2006

Thanks Monsieur (Madame?) Pierre, for my refreshing laugh of the day! I do have to wonder who you think I am? I have a pretty solid theory about who you are, too. "Sour grapes!?" Oh, give me a Kleenex! That's pretty rich. Ms. Ladd, I only know EX-employees of the CL---no current ones---and they all decamped for exactly the reasons you cited. I certainly never worked for the paper...I am just a sideline critic. For the really interesting stuff I look to the Northside Sun. The editorials/op-eds are simply hilarious (unintentionally, a lot of the time), and there are cute photos of people I actually know!

senza

Aug 10 2006

Serious question. what do you think of Agnew defending the CL's decision not to publish the race of the man who raped a jogger in Ridgeland two years ago? He was very vocal about it.

Kingfish

Aug 10 2006

Kingfish---that's just typical of their hyper-defensive "colorblind" editorial policy. Of course we all knew the race of that Trace rapist! Had he been Caucasian, would there have been a mad scramble to conceal his cullah? I think not. "Big Ol' Horny White Male Jumps Jogger" would probably have been spread in 10-point caps.

senza

Aug 10 2006

I think it was a stupid decision. Yes, we all know that black men are maligned in the media, but that did not give the C-L the right to withhold a full description of the suspect if it included a racial description. That's part of the public's right to know, regardless of the cries of unfairness or racism from certain sectors. I do think the C-L or any media outlet should strive to put out as much pertinent and detailed information as possible, and not just settle for the generic "young black male" description to avoid stirring up unnecessary panic or fear.

Jeff Lucas

Aug 10 2006

Ejeff! "Black men maligned in the media"? Puhhhhh-lease! It isn't "maligning" when it's merely reporting. If one doesn't want to be "maligned", hey, here's a brilliantly simple solution: don't do stuff like selling/buying drugs, pulling guns, stealing cars. I find that I can keep my life on a fairly even keel by just abstaining from these activities. It's not really so hard, once you get in the habit of basic law-abiding.

senza

Aug 10 2006

1. Ronnie Agnew is a suburbanite who visibly edits his paper to satisfy the predilections of its majority white, conservative, suburban audience. Accusing him of having a pro-black or anti-white bias is ludicrous. To be honest, I wish he had much more of a pro-black bias because the Ledger is not doing anywhere near as much as it should to deal with the problem of institutional racism. 2. Black men as a group are unfairly maligned in the media. How anyone can deny this is beyond me. I mean, I'd argue the point, but I'm really speechless here. I can't see how anyone, no matter how conservative, can argue with that. And when I connect (1) and (2) with your comment to the effect that most Jacksonians are idiots, I'm pretty sure we've got another silly troller on our hands. Cheers, TH

Tom Head

Aug 10 2006

And a troll who is making a lot of stuff personal against individuals to boot.

DonnaLadd

Aug 10 2006

Ejeff! "Black men maligned in the media"? Puhhhhh-lease! It isn't "maligning" when it's merely reporting. If one doesn't want to be "maligned", hey, here's a brilliantly simple solution: don't do stuff like selling/buying drugs, pulling guns, stealing cars. I find that I can keep my life on a fairly even keel by just abstaining from these activities. It's not really so hard, once you get in the habit of basic law-abiding. That sounds a little judgmental to me. You may not sell illegal drugs or steal cars, but have you ever driven over the speed limit or dropped a piece of paper on the ground and did not pick it up? That reminds me of some holier-than-thou church folks who judge a teen girl for getting pregnant, yet they'll cheat on their taxes. He who is without sin, let him cast the first stone.

LatashaWillis

Aug 10 2006

That's why I didn't even bother to respond to Senza. The stench of troll was overwhelming. 2. Black men as a group are unfairly maligned in the media. How anyone can deny this is beyond me. I mean, I'd argue the point, but I'm really speechless here. I can't see how anyone, no matter how conservative, can argue with that. And when I connect (1) and (2) with your comment to the effect that most Jacksonians are idiots, I'm pretty sure we've got another silly troller on our hands. - TH

Jeff Lucas

Aug 10 2006

Tom and Donna, Did you even READ the editorial by Agnew on this subject?

Kingfish

Aug 10 2006

Latasha writes: That reminds me of some holier-than-thou church folks who judge a teen girl for getting pregnant, yet they'll cheat on their taxes. Or their wives! ejeff writes: That's why I didn't even bother to respond to Senza. The stench of troll was overwhelming. I am frankly beginning to wonder if I have a troll addiction. I spent considerable time this week on the TrollBlog--the other one--arguing on behalf of the ACLU. Yeah. That went about as well as you'd expect. I probably wouldn't have responded to Senza if it weren't for his personal attacks on other posters. I'm always a sucker for that. Likewise, I probably wouldn't have gone on the other TrollBlog if some idiot didn't diss Nsombi Lambright. Kingfish writes: Did you even READ the editorial by Agnew on this subject? No, but then I wasn't really speaking to this subject. I was speaking to the troll's general comments about Agnew's editorial direction. Cheers, TH

Tom Head

Aug 10 2006

Tom, you do seem to like bludgeoning your head against a brick wall by trying to participate at TrollBlog2. Interesting considering I remember you dissing the C-L forums here a few months ago. I consider the C-L forums pretty tame and much more balanced than anything at TrollBlog2 (well there was this Klansman from Georgia on there a few months ago, but otherwise...)

Jeff Lucas

Aug 11 2006

oh my gosh, such time and effort....and on what? a recipe. what do you guys do over there for…oh…I don’t know, a misquote? does that merit a lynching? i do understand the seriousness of plagiarism…but please we are talking about tomatoes.

ang

Aug 11 2006

I guess Tom likes tilting at windmills every once in awhile. :D

Ironghost

Aug 11 2006

You're right. If someone breaks into your house and just steals ... a tomato ... what's the big deal? ;-) As for Agnew's editorial, I assume you're talking about the Trace rapist, not the tomatoes, King? I haven't commented on the Trace thing on this thread. I'm on record on that topic somewhere. I think race was relevant in that case ... if it could help identify the criminal. In that case, if I recall, it seems like it could have. However, in vague reports about crimes with no other identifying information, like those crime round-ups on the front page of the Northside Sun, simply identifying an assailant by race ("a black male" does this, does that) violates journalistic "Best Practices." And there are very good reasons for those ethical codes that I'll get into another time if you'd like. Or, go find the Kerner Commission report on your own.

DonnaLadd

Aug 11 2006

As for Mr. Agnew himself, I personally find his race views oddly inconsistently. First, he doesn't think we need to talk about it at all; everything's behind us. Then, he doesn't want the race of a rapist identified. And I remember another odd columnist about a Madison McDonald's incident perhaps where I thought his comments about race were odd. My point is, he sure is no poster child, as Tom points out, for someone who seems to be looking for real solutions of problems in the inner cities. If anything, when he does seem to delve into race, it seems to inflame, as others have mentioned. He just confuses me just about every time he puts pen to paper, and not in an intelligent, independent-thinking kind of way. I'm sure it's no surprise to anyone that I think he's an unfortunate choice to run that paper; I mean, the journalistic snafus (and omissions) that have happened on his watch are Exhibit A-Z.

DonnaLadd

Aug 11 2006

Oh, and I should add that I say that as someone who has run into him in public exactly twice in all these years (and I attend many public events). I saw him at the opening of the Winter archives building hanging with the head of the Mississippi Economic Council and one Sunday on the treadmill at the Y. He may be an absolutely delightful person, and there is no need for anyone to delve into him personally. But his columns and his newspaper are fair game.

DonnaLadd

Aug 11 2006

A bit confused here. Why was there such a playground outcry of "Troll! Troll!" in response to Senza's exercise of his First Amendment rights? And, Ms. Ladd, it seems to me that his/her only instance of "making...stuff personal" was in response to an attack from another poster, accusing him of being "manic, almost crazed" and "sour grapes"? Admittedly, Senza's defense of Ms. Taylor was "personal," but offered in a spirit of sympathy for a fallen friend who f***ed up, not as exoneration. Perhaps the "Free" in JFP refers to the fact the it can be picked up gratis in the grocery store, not to "free speech." Clearly, anyone not chanting the proper and approved Correkt-Speak won't be welcomed here, and will be called names. Is "troll" a nicer, fairer term than "dumb-ass"? Maybe everyone owes everyone an apology. Well, as you note, Ms. Ladd, it's only a tomato. What a long, strange Food Fight it's been!

cbiskit

Aug 12 2006

I thought the troll label this time was a little strong but that is just my point of view.

Kingfish

Aug 12 2006

I thought it was justified given the fact that s/he was obviously writing to tick people off with ambiguous race-baiting rather than to have a conversation (with stuff about a human "evolutionary scale," the relative intelligence of C-L readers and Mississippians in general, the glorious Northside Sun, blanket denial that black men are treated unfairly in the media, and the ridiculous claim that the Ledge has a "pro-black" bias, etc.). Likewise cbiskit, whose only two posts on JFP appear to be this one and one criticizing an editor for being sloppy by typing "bears" when she meant "bares." I think, frankly, that some friends of Ms. Taylor have gotten ticked off at the fact that the JFP outed her column and are expressing their disapproval of us, which is certainly their right up to a point. I, for one, am glad that we don't live in an area where casual plagiarism at the local daily would go unnoticed. Cheers, TH

Tom Head

Aug 12 2006

Re the TrollBlog2, ejeff: It's definitely worse than the C-L forums, I agree. I don't know why I keep going back, except to defend my friends. Cheers, TH

Tom Head

Aug 12 2006

Trollblog2? Got a link?

Rico

Aug 12 2006

lol! I was wondering the same thing, Rico... After some googling, I'm wondering if it's MississippiPolitics.com, which used to be the infamous JacksonsNextMayor.com.

millhouse

Aug 12 2006

Actually, my concern with Senza's posts were that he/she seemed intent on bashing individual editors about things I as the editor and moderator of this site could not know to be true. It's one thing to criticize what is known publicly, and printed in the publication; it's another to start talking personal insider baseball under a pseudonym. That's not appropriate here. And, yet, once again, someone mistakes the JFP for an arm of the government. We're not; therefore, we cannot violate your right to "free speech," so try that one somewhere else.

DonnaLadd

Aug 12 2006

Now, I'm going to run over to the hotel across the street from my hotel and steal some tomatoes. I'm sure no one will mind; they are just tomatoes.

DonnaLadd

Aug 12 2006

After some googling, I'm wondering if it's MississippiPolitics.com, which used to be the infamous JacksonsNextMayor.com. I went to that Web site one time and almost tossed my cookies. There's a lot of hostility over there. They have a stupid nickname for Donna too: Fondrazon. Yeah, she's a little tall, but DANG!

LatashaWillis

Aug 12 2006

That's a vital point that many posters may not understand. As the law currently stands, the JFP can be sued, at least in principle, for libelous comments members post on this Web site. Keep that in mind. I think it would be a good idea to add Brian's post to the disclaimer.

LatashaWillis

Aug 12 2006

Gosh...What a world! Courtney Parker Taylor, one of my favorite CL writers, lands in a cesspool of her own making. The CL does as little as possible to "deal with" the mess of her plagiarism. Folks on this forum complain about the CL (as they should). I don't send "letters to the editor" (unless they are so short no one could edit them) to the CL anymore. The CL folks bowdlerize my thoughts beyond recognition. I prefer to send them to the Northside Sun. Mr. Emerich does not edit my letters (other than for legal purposes). Regarding other issues at the CL: !. The CL refuses to name the race of any alleged criminal--i.e. "A young _______ male robbed a Trustmark Bank at...... (So the police are going to look for a young Asian male......???? or an 86 year old white guy in a wheelchair?) 2. The editors at the CL "allow" Eric Stringfellow to write columns about alleged "racism" in Canton when the Madison County Sheriff sets up roadblocks in Canton. They complain, Sheriff Trowbridge tells them to take a walk. I'm here to state that I can't leave my development on Thursday, Friday, or Saturday night without going through a Madison County roadblock. I've phoned Sheriff Trowbridge on many occasions. He's always professional. However, he's always replied, "I'm catching criminals and drunks, and I'm not going to change." (In essense, take a hike.) So, Mr. Stringfellow has no gripe. I have written him, David Hampton, and Mr. Agnew about this. They refuse to answer. I have begged them to get facts and statistics. It appears to me that facts are irrevelant. I'm sick about hearing about "racism" in the CL without facts. HDMatthias, MD

HDMatthias, MD

Aug 13 2006

That's the nicest of their nicknames for me, L.W. The two guys behind it started out with a much nastier "parody" site of the JFP years back. You wouldn't believe what that site was like. During the three years and three sites through which they've "cyberstalked" the JFP, they've made me angry from time to time (especially when they posted or allowed something to be posted that could have gotten my loved ones or staff hurt—like home addresses and the like), but ultimately I really feel sorry for them, to be honest. It must be hell to live in a world so tiny and angry. Let's send them and their families a few prayers and hope that they become happier people and move on from the desire to tear down the positive that's happening without their permission (gasp!). At this point, all their presence does is help us anyway because people are so disgusted by the site and the folks who post there under their real names. They're the best example this town has seen of a local radical fringe—and having a measuring stick is always useful.

DonnaLadd

Aug 14 2006

Dr. Matthias, please don't stop writing your wonderful, refreshing, cut-to-the-chase letters to the CL! They always make my husband and I holler, "Yes, MA'AM!" I loved the one about getting after those cretinous golf-course vandals in Northbay. I'd love to have helped you with that bit of frontier justice. I have only written one letter the the CL editor, and addressed it to Mr. Hampton personally, because he actually seems to have some sense (although I don't always agree with him 100%). I received a polite phone call from some staffer, mostly verifying that I wasn't a crank, and that I had provided a real phone number---standard procedure, of course. Then I got an e-mail from Mr. Hampton himself, asking permission to change a word/phrase or two for clarity, and omit 2 or 3 sentences for space considerations. All good suggestions, and didn't "bowdlerize" my meaning, so I agreed. So...I'd have to count that as a positive interaction, and would be willing to write them again, if a topic really seemed important enough. But as Voltaire said, "qui plume a, guerre a" (He who has a pen, has a war) and I rather like staying out of verbal fisticuffs these days. Some, as evidenced in this thread, thrive on fang-b(e)aring, and all it amounts to is "preaching to the choir," for both sides. Ms. Ladd will not make any of us moderate conservatives (or those further to the "radical right") pause and whisper remorsefully, "Gee! She's absolutely right! What a blind narrow-minded fool I've been!"---any more than you, dear Dr. M, will ever win Ms. Ladd over to your eminently reasonable views. So, perhaps you're wise to write to Mr. Emmerich's paper instead. Your readers will follow you there (I among them, I hasten to add). Margaritas ante porcos. I think everyone at both extreme ends of the liberal-wanker-to-Neo-Nazi spectrum could benefit from a re-reading of "The Emperor's New Clothes." Saying something's so don't necessarily make it so, y'all. Other good reading would be Kurt Vonnegut's short story "Harrison Bergeron" (futuristic tale of a boy who dared to think his own thoughts, despite an electronic-shock device implanted by the government to emit a headsplitting CLANNNNNG whenever a citizen thought a politically incorrect thought). Vonnegut's imaginary (?) America had a new government cabinet---one instituted to insure absolute equality. Those who were too handsome, too pretty, too talented, too intelligent, too industrious, were issued manditory "handicaps" (for example, the athletically-gifted were shackled with iron leg-weights, so they wouldn't be able to outrun the slower folks, and hurt their self-esteem.) The cabinet secretary was Diana Moon Glampers---she was officially issued a new last name, because her birth name was too pretty, and might make someone with an ugly-sounding name "feel bad." I'm rambling. I'll close with another favorite, from Yeats' "The Second Coming." "The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity."

cbiskit

Aug 14 2006

Biscuit, I know you're out to give me a good a$$-tanning on my own site, so I hate to disappoint you, but the good Doc and I agree heartily on a number of issues, and disagree on others. Otherwise, don't troll my site for a fight, in whatever language you try to tuck it into. We'll just move you to the TrollBlog where you can fight with some folks who don't spell quite as well as you do. Trolling by any other name ... That is, my dear, talk about issues, but leave out the attempts to start a fight. Nobody gives a damn.

DonnaLadd

Aug 14 2006

Not disappointed at all, my dear. You responded (and, my gracious, so quickly) precisely as I'd suspected you would. "Issues?" I thought one of Dr. M's points had been the "issue" of bowderization, and that's what I was addressing. So sorry nobody gives a damn. And that really ought to be "into whichever language you choose to tuck it." Don't bother banning Miss Biskit from your m*******tory site. I won't be back, anyway. So lomg, farewell, auf wiedersehen, goodbye!

cbiskit

Aug 14 2006

Yep, the moderator is back in town. And I love this new Recent Comments window that refreshes itself. Makes it easy to keep my eyes on you pretties! <8-) Later, Biscuit. Too bad; you added SO much to the discussion.

DonnaLadd

Aug 14 2006

OK, all, I finally got a few minutes to go back and edit out the more personal postings above, mostly by Senza, speaking on behalf of other people and making "factual" statements about others that we cannot know to be true. I apologize that this thread turned into a tug-o-war between former disgruntled Ledge employees and current ones. I've suspended the ones who were clearly trying to use this thread for personal vendettas.

DonnaLadd

Aug 14 2006

OK, everyone. Compare this: To our readers Several passages that appeared in Courtney Taylor's column on fried green tomatoes on July 26 should have been attributed to an article in Southern Living magazine. The writer did not attribute the information. Taylor's work no longer will appear in The Clarion-Ledger. with this: http://tinyurl.com/eqedq The latter, IMO, is how it should be done. Best, Tim

Tim Kynerd

Aug 15 2006

This is my serious contribution to the whole discussion. http://www.pbase.com/image/22392393

Kingfish

Aug 15 2006

Good one, Tim. You're right. That is how it should be done. Stuff like this happens, but when it does, you figure out what happened, then get out there as quickly as possible, explain, apologize to the readers. A little apology never hurt anyone—and, in fact, shows that you give a damn. ;-)

DonnaLadd

Aug 15 2006