Jackson Free Press

I had to leave Mississippi for it to happen.

In the mall, Columbia, Mo.: My girlfriend and I giggled over Dippin' Dots ice cream. We held hands. We looked at the table next to us, where a young girl and guy were holding hands, too. The guy stood up, and his girlfriend jerked on his baggy jean shorts a little. She pulled too hard, though, and his genitals flopped out.

When the mall security officer walked up, I thought he was coming after that guy.

"I'm going to have to ask you to leave," the officer said.

But he was talking to us. The mall is a family environment, he said, and we were making people feel uncomfortable. If we didn't leave immediately, he'd escort us out.

A few months later, camping in Oregon, I kissed my girlfriend on the cheek in the public bathroom. When a wild-haired lady stepped in front of the doorway to block my exit, she aimed to tell me how terrible I am.

"I don't want to be exposed to that," she started.

"Why is this happening in Oregon," I thought, "when it never happened in Mississippi?"

Mississippi wasn't the easiest place to be gay. I had my small brushes with homophobia, like the security guard who sent me Focus on the Family tapes trumpeting Leviticus' declaration against homosexuality. I still remember sitting in my freshman liberal arts class and hearing students avowing that gay people would and should go to hell. I spent that year crying behind my dormitory, begging God to make me stop wanting to date a woman.

I saw it happen to others, too. In the African American community in Jackson, many men who sleep with men still don't use condoms because they are so plagued by fear and stigmas. Using a condom when having sex would be admitting a deliberate sexual act. Instead, they forego the condom in an attempt to glaze over the sex as an "accident." Unable to live their lives openly, they pass diseases between each other and to their girlfriends (because often, they still have them).

A friend of mine may leave Jackson, a place she loves, because she and her partner can't legally adopt in Mississippi.

As a college student in Jackson, I used to think that if only I could get out, it would be so much easier to be gay. The only gay bar restricted entrance to those 21-or-older, and most schools didn't have active LGBT support groups. Moving to a place like Oregon would make life so much easier. I could meet more gay people there. I could walk down the street with my girlfriend and not worry what other people think.

But intolerant, even hateful, people exist in other states, too. Even in a state like Oregon, people will berate you for kissing your girlfriend on the cheek.

In Mississippi, I had prepared myself to be brave. If someone ever directly confronted me, I knew I'd fight back. I'd stand up for myself, for every homosexual I knew who had been beaten up with tales of Sodom and Gomorrah. But when the actual moment came, 10 hours away from Jackson, in Columbia, I said nothing. I felt sucker-punched. Stunned, I walked out of the mall.

"This never happened to me in Mississippi," I told my girlfriend.

It didn't happen to me here, which isn't to say it doesn't happen to other people. But the thing that I have found sets Mississippi apart from other states is that it gets fightin' mad. In 2004, after 86 percent of Mississippians voted against gay marriage, the LGBT community didn't start feeling sorry for itself. It started fighting back, working to show the state that gay people aren't abominations.

Before a year ago, the state had no festival to celebrate gay pride. Though these festivals might seem silly, they are so important for allowing a person to really accept and celebrate his or her sexuality. The people at Unity Mississippi moved into action last year to make sure Mississippi had a festival, too. And the event was a success! The group gathered up money to bring popular acts like Bitch and Eric Himan. The festival stretched over several days, hosting movie nights, theater and concerts, because the people in Unity understand that not every gay person is the same, so not every event will appeal to every gay person.

This year the festival is back, proving that Unity will stay the course in Jackson.

The Queer Young Adult Network (QYAN) has also started back up again. Check out http://www.myspace.com/qyan to find out more, but the group is designed to foster community and do service work.

This group gets up early on Saturday mornings to do service work, like helping to build a house through Habitat with Humanity.

In Jackson, heterosexuals are helping to make the city an easier place for LGBTs.

When I wrote a column in 2004 about being both lesbian and Christian, many heterosexuals reached out to me, telling me their church would always accept me.

The first person I ever told I am gay was a heterosexual Millsaps professor, who helped me quit hating myself. And my favorite pro-LGBT column ever written in Mississippi was by Ali Greggs, a man-loving lovely woman.

We still need the state to be a safe place for LGBT couples who want to have children. We need to make men feel less ashamed, so that when they do have sex, they will use condoms. We need more options for young LGBTs at local colleges and high schools so they don't find themselves, like I did, drinking too much or crying all night long because they've learned to hate themselves.

Mississippi has so much going for it. If we come together and stand up for our rights, there is no limit to what we can achieve.

Former JFP Assistant Editor Casey Parks just returned from Africa with New York Times columnist Nick Kristoff.

Previous Comments

ID

73691

Comment

Well, just a slight correction here... "Mississippi Gay Pride" took place in 2003 after attendees at the 2003 Mississippi Gay & Lesbian Summit decided to begin an annual LGBT pride celebration. It was held in Smith Park in downtown Jackson and was well attended considering having been the first gay pride event held since 1979. It was again planned for 2004 but cancelled at the last minute by the organizers due to their inability to understand a concept called "organization". After the 86% passage of the Mississippi Consitutional Marriage Amendment, fed-up queers and allies got together and formed Unity Mississippi.. the organization that has successfully proven that organization can bring about great social opportunities for LGBT Mississippians - such opportunities as the inaugural OUToberfest in 2005 and the 2nd Annual OUToberfest being held this week! Thanks to Unity Mississippi and all those involved with Unity for your hardwork and dedication! Alas, we at Equality Mississippi get the dull, boring political side of the fight for equality while Unity Mississippi gets the glamour social side of pride fests, movie fests and building houses! haha Remember, we're all working for the same goal.. so get involved with an organization - be it Equality Mississippi, Unity Mississippi or Sister Spirit! Jody Renaldo; Executive director Equality Mississippi

Author

Jo-D

Date

2006-10-11T22:39:07-06:00

ID

73692

Comment

I love your writing skills Casey. I feel your pain, but some of us can't ever accept the lesbian/gay lifestyle. But personally I can be tolerant, respectful, and Godly-loving to anyone who isn't trying to harm or convert me. I'm still working on loving my enemies, and I'm worried I might not ever get there. One correction though, Ali does't love us men. I read her writing constantly and have noted more than once that she and some friends are trying to replace us with toy stores. She said we're annoying. What deep hate this represents. Anyway, your column brought to mind an old Earth Wind and Fire hit record called "Sing A Song." Here it is: When you feel down and out, sing a song, it'll make your day. Here's a time to shout, sing a song, it'll make a way. Sometimes it's hard to care, sing a song it'll make your day. A smile so hard to bear, sing a song, it'll make a way. Bring your heart to believing, sing a song, It'll make your day. Life ain't about no retrieving, sing a song, it'll make a way. Give yourself what you need, sing a song, it'll make your day. Smile, smile, smile and believe, sing a song, it's make a way. Most of all, in my humble view, life is much about grace, mercy, forgiveness, and love of all mankind regardless of anything else. If God wasn't merciful, and gave us what we all deserved or earned, I doubt there would be any straight people around to hate or castigate gay or lesbian people. My Godchild has been a lesbian for years and her daddy still can't accept it or treat her with the same love and respect he gladly bestows to his straight daughter. Hopefully, he'll reconcile his defect in love someday.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2006-10-12T10:31:49-06:00

ID

73693

Comment

Amen, sister. :) Maya Angelou has a quote which all my friends think is uber cheesy, but I love it. "A bird doesn't sing because it has the answer, a bird sings because it has a song." And you've got a beautiful song.

Author

Lori G

Date

2006-10-13T08:19:21-06:00

ID

73694

Comment

Ray, its not what it is cracked up to be being around them. Let a woman in your life and your serenity is through, she'll redecorate your home, from the cellar to the dome, and then go on to the enthralling fun of overhauling you... Let a woman in your life, and you're up against a wall, make a plan and you will find, that she has something else in mind, and so rather than do either you do something else that neither likes at all You want to talk of Keats and Milton, she only wants to talk of love, You go to see a play or ballet, and spend it searching for her glove Let a woman in your life and you invite eternal strife, Let them buy their wedding bands for those anxious little hands... I'd be equally as willing for a dentist to be drilling than to ever let a woman in my Life, I'm a very gentle man, even tempered and good natured who you never see complain, Who has the milk of human kindness by the quart in every vein, A patient man am I, down to my fingertips, the sort who never could, ever would, let an insulting remark escape his lips Very gentle man... But, Let a woman in your life, and patience hasn't got a chance, She will beg you for advice, your reply will be concise, and she will listen very nicely... and then go out and do exactly what she wants! You are a man of grace and polish, who never spoke above a hush, all at once you're using language that would make a sailor blush, Let a woman in your life, and you're plunging in a knife, Let the others of my sex tie the knot around their necks, I prefer a new edition of the Spanish Inquisition than to ever let a woman in my life I'm a quiet living man, who prefers to spend the evening in the silence of his room, who likes an atmosphere as restful as an undiscovered tomb, A pensive man am I, of philosophic joys, who likes to meditate, contemplate, far from humanities mad inhuman noise, Quiet living man.... But, Let a woman in your life, and your sabbatical is through, in a line that never ends comes an army of her friends, come to jabber and to chatter and to tell her what the matter is with you!, she'll have a booming boisterous family, who will descend on you en mass, she'll have a large wagnerian mother, with a voice that shatters glass, Let a woman in your life, Let a woman in your life, Let a woman in your life I shall never let a woman in my Life.

Author

Kingfish

Date

2006-10-13T08:25:54-06:00

ID

73695

Comment

Great poem or song, Fish.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2006-10-13T09:13:44-06:00

ID

73696

Comment

My Fair Lady.

Author

Kingfish

Date

2006-10-13T09:31:17-06:00

ID

73697

Comment

Not a great song, and one of the most annoyingly sexist movies, ever. Casey, glad you're back! Sorry the world is filled with morons who'd rather see some boy's dangly a'danglin' than see you happy.

Author

kate

Date

2006-10-13T09:52:11-06:00

ID

73698

Comment

Better Aubdrey Hepburn should be running around half naked with carrying two M-60's singlehandedly while killing 7 foot tall bad guys and using Conans sword to castrate the ones she doesn't kill. ;-)

Author

Kingfish

Date

2006-10-13T09:57:31-06:00

ID

73699

Comment

I meant great in terms of being thoughful, written well - literary wise. I wasn't saying I agree with the contents. I'll take the woman any day over the poem. Ladies, carry on. I'm to weak today to fight any battles with women I didn't start. Kate is a queen. Down with Kingfish.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2006-10-13T10:05:53-06:00

ID

73700

Comment

Ah, yes Fish, let's frame this in terms of two extremes. Per usual. Because the *only* options for women are to fetch slippers for an asshole, or run around castrating men. Adds a whole lot of nothin', to what should be a thread about Casey's article. Ray, I'm not a Queen. I'm a person.

Author

kate

Date

2006-10-13T10:11:56-06:00

ID

73701

Comment

Yes, Kate, and in the context I'm thinking a queen is a wonderful person, not a ruling figure as in Queen Elizabeth or Oprah.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2006-10-13T10:18:41-06:00

ID

73702

Comment

I agree, Kate. This thread confused me. Ray, why on earth would you respond to Casey with a back handed compliment, ala "great column, but you know I can never accept you." What if I were to say, Ray you are a great blogger but due to your color I can't accept you. To me it's the same thing. Gays and Lesbians are not trying to "convert" a damn soul, what they are trying to do is live their lives without discrimination and all of us, gay or straight, need to respond to their suffering with some honest justice. No matter your religious beliefs do you really want to prevent a person from visiting their loved one in a hospital or feeling that they have a right to exist???

Author

Izzy

Date

2006-10-13T10:36:03-06:00

ID

73703

Comment

I know I'm gonna come across as a complete bitch, here, but I *really* hate My Fair Lady. And, I'm annoyed that Fish has once again tried to place the argument as being only one of two extremes. As a result, Ray, you get my annoyance - relatively minor - at this notion that women need to be put on pedestals, which is what it sounds like when you refer to me as a "queen" when I dare to comment that I really don't like My Fair Lady, or any of the music in it. Even though it is witty and well performed. It's the Madonna/Whore syndrome, which is no better than the "oh, you don't like My Fair lady? Well it's better than watching Audrey Hepburn castrate men!" crap.

Author

kate

Date

2006-10-13T10:38:54-06:00

ID

73704

Comment

It's all funny if you aren't a woman. that's what I see

Author

Izzy

Date

2006-10-13T10:40:23-06:00

ID

73705

Comment

Thanks, Laurel, for getting us back on track.

Author

kate

Date

2006-10-13T10:41:19-06:00

ID

73706

Comment

Yup.

Author

Izzy

Date

2006-10-13T10:44:21-06:00

ID

73707

Comment

I was thinking about one of Tom Head's blogs discussing the dearth of female bloggers in the online community. I have seen it happen a couple of times on these blogs where a woman will bring up a concern or a point that is important to her and a man will make a joke or scoff at the issue. Making a joke is in effect a brush off. I have seen women stop posting on a thread due to this. I know it's a bit off this topic but is perhaps something to think on.

Author

Izzy

Date

2006-10-13T10:48:20-06:00

ID

73708

Comment

Laurel, you're having a comprehension problem if you think I said I didn't or could never accept Casey. I never said anything like that. I said some people would never accept the gay and lesbian life style. I said I was tolerant, and would accept anyone not trying to harm or convert me. And yes I love Casey, and my goddaughter who is a lesbian probably more than my goddaugter's daddy's does. I do not subscribe to the content of my fair lady. I didn't even know it was by fair lady and didn't really read the contents thoroughly. I thought it was funny and the typical men joking women stuff that no one takes very seriously. I even sung Casey a song of cheer in Sing a Song. If y'all want somebody to beat up anyway, I'll be back after class to take the heat. For the record, I considered King's song to be inappropriate too. In case there is any question, I'm not a phony. I have no proble saying what I feel or think. I don't know what Kingfish meant but I do know what I meant.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2006-10-13T10:52:30-06:00

ID

73709

Comment

Ray, you might not want to post things like "some of us can't accept the lesbian/gay lifestyle." Because, when you say "us" it makes it sound like you are one of those people who can't accept. And, what the heck is a lesbian/gay lifestyle, anyway? Laurel, I do think it's interesting that two guys jumped on the train of belittlement as soon as possible. I really don't need My Fair Lady tossed in my face, as a response to one of Casey's brilliantly heartbreaking essays.

Author

kate

Date

2006-10-13T11:07:26-06:00

ID

73710

Comment

Sounds like lessons I learned at church: that if it wasn't for Eve, the world wouldn't be in the situation it is in now. Any problems at all: there's always a woman to blame for it. And I wondered why I stopped attending church. It is a beautifully done essay. Being GLBT is darn hard! Why would anyone choose that life? I mean, unless you are really fortunate and all your family and friends support you, you face a life of scorn, ridicule, and going-to-hell-in-a-handbasket type moments. Who would put themselves through that on purpose?

Author

Lady Havoc

Date

2006-10-13T11:44:43-06:00

ID

73711

Comment

that's it, Lady H, just exactly it.

Author

Izzy

Date

2006-10-13T11:54:41-06:00

ID

73712

Comment

I can't even imagine having someone you love, and who supposedly loves you, turning their backs on you just because of who you love. and yet, it happens every day. It's just pointless. Simply pointless.

Author

Lady Havoc

Date

2006-10-13T12:18:10-06:00

ID

73713

Comment

First, Welcome back to the States, Casey :D Second, (also to Casey) a powerful and detailed article about how there's more to the tolerance of MS vs "Rest of USA" than meets the eye. That security guard had NO business interfering with you and your special other's doings - especially with the less than classy acts (where public behavior is concerned, at least) with that hetero couple. Third, (to Ray), I side with Kate and Laurel on this one - it wasn't the best choice of words. Granted, it took time for me to develop a taste (or at least a lack of distaste) for lesbigay matters, but I did it. Think of it this way - just as sometimes, when trying new foods, you occasionally run across a dish you must allow your taste buds to adjust to in order to fully appreciate, so it is with non-mainstream lifestyles (the same idea applies to different kinds of music, art, and literature as well). Maybe this is the key to greater tolerance - realizing that one's tastes for difference needs expanding, and be ever-cognizant that there is likely to come a time when you need to further expand your tastes in one matter or another.

Author

Philip

Date

2006-10-13T12:20:10-06:00

ID

73714

Comment

I'll with the grrls here, Ray. When I read your comment yesterday, it rather reminded me of all the people in my hometown when I was growing up who would say that they knew and liked (even loved) a few particular black people, but they were "different," implying that the "black" lifestyle or culture or something was unacceptable to them. I'd urge you to ponder this more. I agree with the grrls that it is not atypical for a man to try to change the subject, or drive the conversation away, when "women's" issues come up. Of course, they did the right thing and took the conversation back. Obviously, the JFP is a place where men, white or otherwise, have no special privileges or control (which I will note drives them crazy on occasion, but they'll get over it). My first thought on the "My Fair Lady" lyrics is that we do not have the rights to post the whole song. Kingfish, I've warned you about this before. You cannot post more than a quarter of a piece, or song, or anything else without permission. I will be editing this to bring it in line with the rules. Please obey them going forward.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2006-10-13T13:08:48-06:00

ID

73715

Comment

And, I'm annoyed that Fish has once again tried to place the argument as being only one of two extremes. I agree with Kate here and hope that Kingfish grows out of this annoying, and limiting, habit of binary thinking and logic. Makes no sense. Of course, women are too accustomed to being divided into the angel-vs.-whore paradigm. Or: lady-vs.-bitch. And Mississippi has some extra catching up to do on this front. It amazes me how many women are simply afraid to challenge a man in these parts. Ridiculous.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2006-10-13T13:11:23-06:00

ID

73716

Comment

Good column Casey. Although I think the most stunning thing to me about the column was simply that the guy next to you had his genitals spill out of his shorts. That would definitely put me off my lunch. I have no critiques of the column that I want to offer. But I do want to address one issue that I think is often oversimplified in these discussions. And that is the issue of choice. We often hear that no one would choose to be gay, because it is so hard and painful. But people choose things that are hard and painful all the time. They choose to be in abusive relationships, they choose to abuse drink and drugs, they choose to spend more than they can afford. It is exactly like human nature to choose things that are hard for us. Now, having said that, I am not saying that this means gay people choose to be gay. That is obviously not true in most cases -- they just find that they are attracted to the same sex. What I am saying is that the reasoning behind this commonly used counterargument is flawed. That is, the quesiton of whether or not being gay is a choice has nothing to do with whether or not being gay is hard. It just has to do with whether or not, and to what degree, one choose who one is attracted to. And, in that regard, I think the real answer is this -- it's very complicated. I think sexuality is so bizarre and complex, so closely and intimately related to everything about us on the deepest level, that it almost doesn't make sense to identify one lone reason why anyone is the way they are sexually. I know there is choice invloved in my sexuality. That doesn't mean I consciously choose to be straight, or consciously choose to be attrated to one woman more than another, but it does mean that a lot of who I am sexually today is a consequence of everything in my life before, including genetics, environment, socialization, religion, AND the choices I made along the way. I am discussed sexuality with lots of my good friends, both gay and straight, and they all have a different story. I have a different story than all of them too. So, I think the explanations are just never going to be simple. Life is just as complaicted as it is. So, given that nothing is simple, I guess we have to just listen to one anoher and start trying to understand a little better as we go. So thanks, Casey, for contributing another piece to that puzzle.

Author

GLB

Date

2006-10-13T13:57:38-06:00

ID

73717

Comment

On the topic of "choice" in this discussion—I have one response. It is irrelevant. People have the right to "be" gay, and to equal rights under our Constitution regardless of whether they "choose" to be gay (or whatever). The only reason it comes up in the first place is defensive—i.e. to respond to homophobes who try to argue that homosexuals do not have equal rights because they "choose" to be gay and, thus, could "choose" to be people who deserve equal rights and respect. That whole line of thought is flawed. That's why I don't see much use in having that discussion. Arguing about it gives it too much weight.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2006-10-13T14:08:31-06:00

ID

73718

Comment

Nicely said, Donna. I stand corrected. And, GLB? the short-spilling would put me off of a few meals, not just lunch. Hey! New dieting technique! :D

Author

Lady Havoc

Date

2006-10-13T14:11:31-06:00

ID

73719

Comment

Also, GLB, the logic of that argument—however irrelevant—is not as flawed as you try to present it. Certainly, in cases of gays and lesbians who are made miserable by their so-called "choice" to be gay, it is not illogical to say that it is unlikely that so many would "choose" such a life of misery. Just because some people might "choose" to be miserable (seemingly the crux of your logic issue here) does not mean that this is not a strong argument against the radical right's theory that all homosexuality is by choice. Your twisting in the wind a bit here.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2006-10-13T14:12:04-06:00

ID

73720

Comment

Alright, I expected a little heat and am surprised it didn't happen yesterday instead of today. I take no blame for my "fair lady" and wouldn't have ever posted it here. Not even when I took y'all on about Oprah and Rap music. I could never stoop that low. Anyway, I know lots of people who would never stop preaching to gays or lesbians that they're wrong and hell bound. I'm not one of them and wouldn't participate in that abuse. I've even walked out on some of it. I'll admit I'm not one of those who equates the plight of gays/lesbians totally with the plight and situations of blacks. There is a big difference between the two that I'm not ready to concede yet, and y'all have heard it before. However, as I have said before I won't participate in, condone, or allow, if I can stop it, any discrimination or abuse of gays or lesbians, just as I wouldn't tolerate it against anyone else. I don't even have a problem with marriage, benefits, or any of those things many others are still against. I'll even admit gays and lesbians probably deserve special considerations because of unjustified and unnecessary prejudices against them. I can do this without equating the situation with that of black Americans. I concede that I wrote what I wrote for a purpose. I would indeed have a problem with a man trying to hit on me, but I would simply say I don't fly that way and move on. There is no excuse for any further actions unless he persisted. I'll even personally concede that I'm less bothered by the lesbians than I am the gays. But I'm not hateful toward either. I wouldn't choose a straight over a gay or lesbian for a job either. An honest discussion of the subject matter and issues is a wonderful thing to do. The enemies comment wasn't a reference toward gays or lesbians. It was merely a comment upon one of my shortcomings that Christians often point out to me, but something I can't claim to have accepted or achieved yet. I mentioned it to show I'm still evolving. I can love gays and lesbians without restrictions just as I love others. Tell me where I'm wrong everybody, I'm open to learning.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2006-10-13T14:26:45-06:00

ID

73721

Comment

No, Ladd, I am simply saying that it is an oversimplification I agree with you that the choice issue is really irrelevant to whether someone has the right to be gay, but I disagree that chosing misery is a rare thing. It happens all the time. I can tell you that I have been attracted to different types of women at different points in my life, for different reasons. And my choices have partly affected how that has changed. So, I think it is wise to factor in the role of choice, simply because choices are integral part tof who all of us are and become. For better for or worse, choices do have consequences and affect outcomes. This is neither a threat or a promise -- it is just the truth. Again, please understand that I'm not trying to make any subtle (or not-so-subtle) arguments that " being gay is just a choice". I am simply arguing that this issue is not that simple. Tahat is, to say "being gay is not a choice" is probably also an oversimplification too. It often depends on each individual, and their individual story. I would say that the sexuality of everyone I know, including myself, is a result of lots of different factors, some of which are not chosen, and some of which are. If you want to really understand anyone in this regard, you basically have to get to know them and learn their story.

Author

GLB

Date

2006-10-13T14:34:05-06:00

ID

73722

Comment

Kate, one of the guys never jumped on the train of belittlement. If you want me to jump on it for the sake of argument, you know I'm crazy enough to do it. Kingfish has to answer for how my fair lady applies to this subject matter. I don't know how it does.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2006-10-13T14:35:34-06:00

ID

73723

Comment

Ladd: I just reread your comment. You said the argument was not AS falwed as I tried to present it. I guess tyou're right that I didn't mean to be entirely dicmissive of it. That is, many people usually just find that they are atrated to the same sex, so for them it is bizaree to hear peopel tellign them that they are hoosing to be that way. So, if I was overly dismissive, I didn't mean to be. Again, I'm just saying, sexuality is complicated, and the "who would choose to be miserable" argument is probably not the best one to use, because lots of people choose just that . That' s really all I wanted to say, even though it has taken me 5 billion words or so to say it.

Author

GLB

Date

2006-10-13T14:44:56-06:00

ID

73724

Comment

I love your comments Phillip. I have given the subject matter more thought than it appears. Again, my work unit or station at State Farm comprised 2 straight males, 2 gay males, 2 lesbian females, and 1 bi-sexual female. It took me several months to years to realize this. I made a gay comment the first day of work and one of the females I didn't know was lesbian treated me like a dog for 4 years. Finally, se said Ray Charles you're a real nice person, do you know why I've been mistreating you so long. I had no clue. She then told me about the other women and guys. I suspected the guys were gay but were too dumb to discern the preference of the women. When they learned I was resigning, they offered to throw me a party, which I accepted. To this day, I have a picture of the whole crew in my bible. Every Sunday I go to church I see that picture of them.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2006-10-13T14:47:06-06:00

ID

73725

Comment

One of the paragraphs I just posted is so horribly full of typos that I feel a need to repost it with corrections. So, here ya go. I guess you're right. I didn't mean to be entirely dismissive of it. That is, many people usually just find that they are attracted to the same sex, so for them it is bizarre to hear people telling them that they are choosing to be that way.

Author

GLB

Date

2006-10-13T14:47:25-06:00

ID

73726

Comment

Donna, I promise I didn't try to change the subject. I was as surprised as anyone to see that song under this column. I wanted to show love and acceptance toward Casey and others but wasn't willing to mislead anyone about what others I know think or I still think.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2006-10-13T14:54:08-06:00

ID

73727

Comment

That's OK, GLB. I saw what you were trying to do, just encouraging you to clarify your language on it. The same could be said for you, too, Ray. ;-) I think you're both doing a fine job on said clarification, which will move the discussion even further along. Excellent work.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2006-10-13T15:12:50-06:00

ID

73728

Comment

I do have one question though. I was surprised that no one had written a comment before me. Likewise, I'm surprised no one really said much until Kingfish did the usual and I dumbly stuck my toe back in the matter. The silence on the issue bothered me since I happen to know Casey is adored by lots of people who frequent this site. How is silence helping the issue. I also happen to know that not everyone is approving or accepting. How can the discussion be honest without true expersiions. Moreover, what benefit is served by women, if this is really the case, letting a few big-headed, strong-willed, stupid, or baiting men intimidate them into not expressing their ideas. I believe someone siggested this occurrs. Let me say once and for all, if anyone is wondering, I make no effort to intimidate or dominate at all. This is true although it might appear otherwise.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2006-10-13T15:49:42-06:00

ID

73729

Comment

I meant true expressions. Y'all know my hurried limitation.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2006-10-13T16:07:29-06:00

ID

73730

Comment

Laurel, I fail to see how my comments were a backhanded compliment to Casey. But if she thinks they were, I apologize to her. My comments were honest, real, and truthful as best I know. I didn't say a single negative thing about Casey personally, or gays/lesbians generally. To be sure I have re-read my initial comments several times, and still don't see your claim or argument. You simply didn't understand what I wrote and overreacted. Now, I could have written glowinig and dishonest commentaries but I personally wouldn't accept those from anybody. Don't tell me the comment about "trying to harm and convert me" is an exclusive comment about homosexuality. It isn't and wasn't meant to be, but I do understand why it can be easily taken this way under the circumstances. I'm out. Have a good weekend everybody. Much love.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2006-10-13T16:56:39-06:00

ID

73731

Comment

Ray, I believe that you're being genuine and are well-meaning here. However, the disturbing and/or confusing part of your original statement was "some of us can't ever accept the lesbian/gay lifestyle." That doesnt sound backhanded. You like Casey, but you cannot "accept" her "lifestyle." What does it mean not to "accept" a gay lifestyle? Believing she's going to hell? Voting against gay marriage? Denying gays the same rights? And what is a "gay lifestyle"? I've known many, many homosexuals over the years, some very well. And their "lifestyles" are as varied as those of straight people. Can you imagine someone saying "some of us can't ever accept the black lifestyle"? All this said: I think the bigger point here is that everyone needs to examine their assumptions, beliefs and language when it comes to understanding diversity. Not in some B.S. "politically correct" kind of way—but to try to understand what others are feelings and how limited our own understanding might actually be.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2006-10-13T17:19:09-06:00

ID

73732

Comment

I just read the article. Good one, Casey. I'm sorry you and your partner were harassed by mall security like that. Since when was mall security an authority (no pun intended) on "family values"? I think you may have a case for a lawsuit. There's no telling how many other gay and lesbians couple may've been singled out for their "behavior". This reminds me of the time when a lesbian couple were escorted out of a Los Angeles Dodgers game because people were complaining about them, even though they weren't doing anything worse than a heterosexual couple. I just don't get it.

Author

golden eagle

Date

2006-10-14T09:48:32-06:00

ID

73733

Comment

Ok Donna, etc, "some of us" means some of us humans. Perhaps my subconscious was more at work than I planned or knew it was. I really don't know what the gay and lesbian lifestyle really is, but I meant woman dating women and men dating men. That's the only thing I figure that separates gays/lesbians from the so-called straight people. If there is something deeper then I confess my ignorance and lack of effort to have dug deeper for an understanding. Again, I do not equate the plight or situations of gays/lesbians with that of African Americans. I acknowledge some similarities, real and imagined. Yes, I can imagine some whites saying they can't accept me, blacks, or the black lifestyle, and I sho' would want to know what is the black lifestyle they speak of. I'm sure there are some white folks who would never accept me, and you know me well enough to know I would never care what those kinds of people thought of me. Just give me equality and fairness and I'd be just fine without their acceptance or approval. This is all I believe truly sensible black folks ever wanted and expected. More would be nice and wonderful but I wouldn't lose any sleep or time crying for or expecting more. I'm probably too much of a realist in this regards. Indeed, I understand how it sounds to say I like you or can tolerate you, but I can't really accept you or your lifestyle. Sounds a lot like overall rejection. However, my initial post isn't limited to that comment. Perhaps you, Casey or some of her smart and sensible supporters and friends would tell us what acceptance really is in this regard. I'm certainly tolerant, respectful, loving, forgiving, and non-abusing (maybe not really a word or the right word here) towards gays/lesbians and everyone else. If acceptance means seeing man/man and woman/woman relationships in exactly the same manner, light, or view as I see a man/woman realtionship then I confess I haven't gotten there and may not. For me this is not an argument about right or wrong, it's about about preference. I'm not telling anyone who to like, date and love, and I'm not letting anyone tell me. Moreover, I'm not telling gays/lesbians they're hellbound or wrong. I don't really see how they can be any more hellbound than anyone else because I know too many heterosexual, including preachers, who can't live by the rules of the bible. And many more so-called Christians who don't even try to live by those rules. I have nothing further to say on the subject. I'm out. Cheers as Tom would say.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2006-10-14T12:31:16-06:00

ID

73734

Comment

Well, I guess it's time for me to give up on getting an answer from here to my question of what is acceptance as it regards this issue. I'm thinking this issue is more complicated than it appears and requires more than just an amen, no way, or casual contemplation. The author specifically mentioned the issues of tolerance, hate, and shame which I tried to address. Apparently, or at least I deduced, these issue were important and relevant to her. If acceptance means substantial and non-judgmental tolerance (I give total tolerance to no one), unconditional love without any hating, live and let live, wishing you the best, openness and willingness to help you should you ever ask me, honesty, welcome, to believe in your goodness, the granting and supporting of measures to protect and equailize opportunities, defense and criticism when appropriate, et al, then, I truly love and accept you. However, if it means I can't disagree with you on anything or I can't have a personal and conflicting preference or view then I have an acceptance problem. No truly soundminded person can argue that I don't accept you from what I have written. I'm sorry I chimed in on this, and I thank you for writing the article/column and giving me the chance to comment. You provided an opportunity for me to give the subject matter more thought than normal. I thank Donna too for asking good questions and for not being erroneously judgmental of me, like some others are some real quick to do. I forgive them and know well what their problems with me are. He, he, he, my fair ladies. My mouth might be big but I do bring some complications, cerebration, and provocations to the matters I take on. I'm out. Casey, if I didn't love and accept you, I would have been quite and absent like all those other good friends and supporters. Smile. One love, one heart.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2006-10-16T12:12:28-06:00

ID

73735

Comment

Hey Ray, just for the record I like your posts a lot. The "some of us" part of it through me off, though - I thought you were saying something that it appears you weren't. I thought you were saying that you didn't accept Casey and I got confused by that. As for your question, I think the acceptance in this regard would be along the lines of accepting that gays and lesbians have the right to the same civil protections and opportunities that other citizens do.

Author

Izzy

Date

2006-10-16T13:50:17-06:00

ID

73736

Comment

Oh my. It certainly is a complicated issue, though I don't think it has to be. Tolerance, to me, Ray, is being allowed to live. Ideally, I'd like to not be seen as an aberration (even a tolerated aberration). I always appreciate your comments, though, Ray. "I'm still working on loving my enemies, and I'm worried I might not ever get there. " Though I think this is a gorgeous, poignant sentiment, I think it is one of the reasons posters like Laurel got confused because it, off-handedly, suggests LBGTs are your enemies. Maybe they're your learned enemies? Truly, I don't know many gay people interested in converting straight people into being gay. Regardless, I appreciate your support, your comments and love. casey To Jody, I don't see why Equality or Unity has to slimly fit into the politics or the glamour. They influence each other so much. Why can't you both do each? The more, the better.

Author

casey

Date

2006-10-16T15:07:22-06:00

ID

73737

Comment

People are already tired of me saying that institutional sexism and racism are diseases of the oppressor that can be suppressed but never cured, so I may as well make it a hat trick by adding heterosexism to the list. I didn't think I was homophobic until I broke a few more I-can't-do-that, no-wait-dammit-I-will bubbles this week and realized that if I can do that after years of working LGBT issues as the only straight guy in the room, I probably still have room to grow. I have to admit that this issue isn't really complicated for me, though. It's all about whether relationships are going to be about love or social status. I preached about this yesterday--and should probably make a short blog entry out of my little sermon--but for me, the debate over gay marriage is simply a continuation of the whole Pride and Prejudice, Sense and Sensibility debate we in the West have been having about marriage for love for centuries. If we're going to live into the implications of our current understanding of what love is, then it has to be gender-flexible, and we have to accept same-sex relationships as equal in every way to heterosexual relationships, at least on a rational level, with the understanding that (as is true of any longstanding form of institutional oppression) subconscious obstacles will still present themselves. I think that the vast majority of Americans, if they could just be educated about lesbian and gay relationships in the way I've been, would be pro-gay regardless of their overall framework of political or religious beliefs. Barney Frank likes to say that most people aren't homophobic and that they just think they're supposed to be. There's a lot of wisdom in that statement, IMHO... Cheers, TH

Author

Tom Head

Date

2006-10-16T15:52:59-06:00

ID

73738

Comment

It also sounds like we need to air out what it might mean to "accept" the gay "lifestyle." Thoughts?

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2006-10-16T16:00:33-06:00

ID

73739

Comment

I have never even thought or said gays/lesbians are my enemies. I wouldn't say this. I put that comment there for one reason only, and the reason was to express that I'm an evolving and thinking Christian. I haven't accepted or fulfilled many things I've read in that book. Faith hasn't filled all my voids. If I thought gays/lesbians were my enemies I would say it straight out without any finessing or dilluting of the issue. I can say the same thing about turning the other cheek. I regret I didn't add that situation too. It might have taken out some of the confusion. I started to take out the comment but I needed it to make this point. Even if my subconcious was influential, in some way I wasn't aware, I still made that comment for the stated reason only. I would have had to think or believe gays/lesbian are my enemies for my subconscious to influence me. Since I've never even had the thought I know I didn't mean it. If you want the truth this is it. If you prefer to believe otherwise, I'll accept it. My life's works have and will continue to speak for me on the issue. I don't know any gay people either who are trying to convert straight people. But I know some who has approached straight people in ways they didn't want to be approached. Just as with heterosexuals. I wrote that to show where my limitations and boundaries exist. I'm not writing or speaking for anyone else in this regard. I'm not trying to say the right thing, only the truth. I don't believe this issue can be made a simple one because of great emotions existing on both sides of this issue. I wrote my feeling as best I was able from the start, and I honestly explained them. I haven't meant a single thing I didn't follow up and explain. I haven't backtracted any because I truly expressed my feeling without any lies or pretense in the first place. I concede my initial views weren't expressed well to avoid questions and misinterpretations. I know you don't like to be seen as an aberation. Neither do I. But I don't care anymore how I'm viewed. No one can honestly accused me of playing any role in how gays/lesbians are perceived. I don't think they can accuse you of this either. But I believe your life can have an effect on it. Arguably mines can too. The views or connotations preceded you, and will likely outlive you. In my mind I'm not an aberation no matter what others think of me. I'm glad you responded as I wanted to speak to your heart and mind, not others. I appreciate the candor and honesty of your reply. I assure you I'm not someone you should waste any time hurting over. I have love and acceptance but not perfection. I probably won't ever have perfection. I'm me, good and bad, honest and bold. I make no effort to say the perfect things but I make a great effort to be honest and truthful. If I hurt your feelings, I'm sorry.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2006-10-16T16:12:45-06:00

ID

73740

Comment

If this issue is so simple beyond a small percentage of people why haven't more people evolved or changed with respect to it. Anyone seen any data or studies on how the issue has been received for decade or centuries. Has religion really been the impediment people like to claim it is?

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2006-10-16T16:29:08-06:00

ID

73741

Comment

Oh, I'm not hurt, Ray. No worries there! Good points about the aberration, too. Gay lifestyle, Donna. Oy vey. I just don't know. You're right - my lifestyle and say Knol's are so totally different. Lifestyle is just a 1980s word anyway. anyway, love to you all!

Author

casey

Date

2006-10-16T23:40:02-06:00

ID

73742

Comment

I thought Lifestyles was just a condom brand, actually. Learn something new every day. And, uh, yeah. Anyone who thinks I represent the "heterosexual lifestyle" or, worse, the "biblical family," will be in for a confusing experience. Casey, there was a productive (I think) discussion made out of a less than brilliant question in this thread. Cheers, TH

Author

Tom Head

Date

2006-10-17T06:45:46-06:00

ID

73743

Comment

It was held in Smith Park in downtown Jackson and was well attended considering having been the first gay pride event held since 1979. Um, no, I didn't come out until 1983, and I remember attending pride events in Smith Park, organized by the MGLA, in the mid- to late 1980s. I don't think it was every year, but I know I attended more than one. Laurel, you're having a comprehension problem if you think I said I didn't or could never accept Casey. I never said anything like that. I said some people would never accept the gay and lesbian life style. Sexual orientation is as basic as color. How would you feel if I told you I liked you, but I couldn't accept your "African-American lifestyle"? Our (and I mean everyone's) sexual orientation is an inherent part of us, and saying you can't accept someone's sexual orientation is rejecting an important part of that person, so important that you're basically rejecting the entire person. I'll admit I'm not one of those who equates the plight of gays/lesbians totally with the plight and situations of blacks. There is a big difference between the two that I'm not ready to concede yet, and y'all have heard it before. I haven't. To me, the big difference is that black children usually grow up in families full of people who are also black, and who consequently can feed the child's sense of self and feelings of security and self-esteem. Few gay children have that luxury. The best parallel I see to the way gay children grow up is deaf children, about 90% of whom grow up in families full of hearing people. The isolation that gay children grow up in is very difficult for most other people to even imagine.

Author

Tim Kynerd

Date

2006-10-17T08:18:21-06:00

ID

73744

Comment

Thanks for the correction Tim.. the date of 1979 I got actually came from MGLA's longtime executive director, Eddie Sandifer. Maybe just a slip of memory on his part.. As for "lifestyle".. being gay is not a "lifestyle".. if it was, I couldn't afford it. ;]

Author

Jo-D

Date

2006-10-17T09:09:17-06:00

ID

73745

Comment

Tim, I have no room for agreement that sexual orientation is a basis of color. If you told me you couldn't accept the African American lifestyle. I would be tempted to ask you to define it for me. But I also might just pass on the question and move on. I would probably assume you have a problems with my being black or black folks. I wouldn't waste any time trying to change or convert you. Irrespective of the foregoing, I'm not altering, modifying, depleting, or changing my preference or my impression, view, or opinion of my preference in any fashion. Nor will I ask you or any homosexual to do so. If all the other things I willingly grant gays/lesbians aren't sufficient then so be it, and feel free to cast me wherever you think I belong. I appreciate your candor. But I believe your question goes beyond love and acceptance and into some form of conversion, modification, or alteration of my preference. Vey good question or comment though. I might add that I don't buy the argument that if I don't accept the orientation of a person that I'm basically rejecting the person. So called staight or heterosexual people bedroom lifestyles are as varied as our images, I've been told. I bet many straight people do many things I wouldn't do or let be done to me. I have no interest in knowing what anyone else does behind closed doors - gay, straight or other. I'm only really concerned about mines and the woman I'm with. My best friends and I won't discuss bedroom manners, desires, or taste. This is one of the few things off limits. Any comment I've ever made on any subject of this type were mostly jokes and mere generalities.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2006-10-17T09:19:30-06:00

ID

73746

Comment

At my little sermon at Sunday's interfaith event, I brought up the story of St. Triduana of Scotland. A young nun noted for her striking blue eyes, she attracted the attention of a Scottish prince who wouldn't take no for an answer. In order to live up to the standards of her monastic life, tore out her eyes and sent them to him as a gift so he'd leave her alone. And I said that's what disparaging religious and cultural standards reducing lesbian and gay relationships to a bedroom lifestyle ultimately ask lesbians and gays to do: To tear out the most beautiful thing about themselves and stumble through the rest of their lives blind. Love defines life, shapes life, gives it meaning. It is not bedroom manners, desires, or tastes. It is acceptable for you to have a woman or for me to have a woman; that's not a bedroom lifestyle issue. But if Casey has a woman, it's a bedroom lifestyle issue. Why is that? Cheers, TH

Author

Tom Head

Date

2006-10-17T09:26:09-06:00

ID

73747

Comment

Tom, I don't really know what you're talking about here. I defined what I meant by homosexual lifestles earlier. Perhaps I should have added I don't care what others do outside the bedroom either. I don't knowingly have double standards, and have consciously made great efforts to rid myself of them. Again, I'm not altering or modifying my preference or my perception or impression of it in any form or fashion. I wouldn't dare to ask any one else to do so either. My preference contains no hate or intended harm to other. My preference is about me - no one else. Again, cast me where you may if what I am aren't good enough for all. I'm willing to rise or fall with this position. I have not reduced lesbians and gays to the bedroom. I think this is the first time I mentioned the bedrooms. Am I too understand that no sex is involved in those relationships, unlike straights. If this is the case then I apologize for erroneously alluding to it. I understand the temptation to misinterpret my comments, and to cast me as something I'm not. I sing because I'm free.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2006-10-17T10:01:25-06:00

ID

73748

Comment

Tim, you are right about "prides." They've existed on and off in Jackson for several decades and under many umbrellas. Sadly, in-fighting and apathy are probably the reasons they faded.

Author

kaust

Date

2006-10-17T10:29:04-06:00

ID

73749

Comment

But What Would MARTIN Say? I have a dream that someday (soon) gays and lesbians, heterosexuals, bisexuals, unisexuals and all other homosapians will walk hand in hand - side-by-side without judgement, malace, disdain, shame, guilt or blame: And we will be homogeneous in our value of eachother. We will then be: FREE AT LAST - FREE AT LAST!!!

Author

justjess

Date

2006-10-17T11:47:23-06:00

ID

73750

Comment

Jusjess, I'm free by that standard too. I tried to post another response to Tim earlier. I will try again now. Tim, I love my son but he has ways I choose not to partake in or accept. When he's engaged in them, or in trouble for them, he's quite reluctant to call me for good reasons. I don't accept that aspect of him but I love him nevertheless. I may or may not help him in those situations. My mother and some of my siblings and friends have ways I don't appreciate. They likewise don't like some of my ways and habits. I'm not asking them to change, and they would be wasting their time to ask me. I still love them and hope they love me. Loving you don't mean I have to accept everything about you. I bet you couldn't accept everything about me. And you shouldn't have to. I really don't see where I have any real conflict with anyone on this. I'm not reading anything else on this. I'm out. All the best to everyone.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2006-10-17T12:47:28-06:00

ID

73751

Comment

Tim, I have no room for agreement that sexual orientation is a basis of color. If you told me you couldn't accept the African American lifestyle. I would be tempted to ask you to define it for me. But I also might just pass on the question and move on.I would probably assume you have a problems with my being black or black folks. I wouldn't waste any time trying to change or convert you. Quod erat demonstrandum. This is why when you say you can't accept the gay "lifestyle," we assume you have a problem with being gay or with gay folks. Get it? Tim, I love my son but he has ways I choose not to partake in or accept. When he's engaged in them, or in trouble for them, he's quite reluctant to call me for good reasons. I don't accept that aspect of him but I love him nevertheless. I may or may not help him in those situations. My mother and some of my siblings and friends have ways I don't appreciate. When you say "ways," you are talking about behavior. What I'm trying to get you to see is that sexual orientation is not just behavior. It's an integral part of the personality. Someone posted in a thread once, elsewhere on the Internet: "If you think homosexuality is a choice, here's a question: Could you choose to be homosexual for thirty minutes?" Not would you, but could you. The answer (for most people, anyway) is of course "no," because sexual orientation is ingrained in your personality and identity. I also want to make clear that I don't doubt your sincerity and good intentions, and I'm glad you're willing to engage in dialogue about this. I appreciate that very much. Best, Tim

Author

Tim Kynerd

Date

2006-10-17T16:14:31-06:00

ID

73752

Comment

Thanks for the correction Tim.. the date of 1979 I got actually came from MGLA's longtime executive director, Eddie Sandifer. Maybe just a slip of memory on his part. Probably so. :-) (When I get back to Jackson, very very soon, I need to go see Eddie. I haven't seen him in many years.) Tim, you are right about "prides." They've existed on and off in Jackson for several decades and under many umbrellas. Sadly, in-fighting and apathy are probably the reasons they faded. Unfortunately, I'm sure that's true (why they faded, not that they existed). I remember that it was always hard to sustain any kind of GLBT activity in the Jackson area for any length of time. Here's hoping this has changed. Best, Tim

Author

Tim Kynerd

Date

2006-10-17T16:17:57-06:00

ID

73753

Comment

I have to make supper now, for my hard working spouse. I am not kidding, he works, I don't. but i will read all this later, and I apologize for saying I like Fergie, I can barely hear the words, but it's good to dance to. ha. I think it's ok... It would have been on Queer as Folk, if that hadn't ended too soon. as for GLBT in general, see my previous mention of Lavender!, a gay press here might work, meanwhile I lost my train of thought.. ha. My daughter told me she saw somewhere that Miss. is highest in, not just bad things as usual, but in gay couples with children! wow, that is lovely. I have not looked that up yet, but I believe her. And she will be doing a paper (3rd year law UCLA) on ENDA. If anyone has some good cites on that, let me know. [email][email protected][/email] will read more later, I hope it's mostly ok.

Author

sunshine

Date

2006-10-17T16:52:01-06:00

ID

73754

Comment

Tim, you havent demonstrated a singe thing about me. When have I said I can't accept the gay lifestyle? What is the gay lifestyle if it's anything beyond what I've said earlier? If you or anyone can't accept the so-called black lifestyle so be it. If accepting the gay lifestyle requires me personally giving the man/man relationship the same preference as I give the man/woman relationship then I don't accept the gay relationship or lifestyle. If acceptance means live and let live, and all those other things I willingly conceded earlier then I accept it. I'm not trying to get you to place any value, credence, or acceptance on my preference, and I can accept your preference without any hatred or condemnation. Neither am I placing any negative value, lack of credence, or non-acceptance to your lifestyle. But I bet you can't believe this. I bet you and many others think I have some hidden bias, fears, agenda, hate, impression, or something else I haven't expressed, but I don't, and I'm not bulging any until I see a reason to change my view. I have no qualms or even questions about whether sexual orinetation is a choice or integral part of the personality. I've heard two views on this and will accept whatever is in the best interest of the gay and lesbian cause. I'll accept your verion as truthful regardless as well. I'm open to being proven wrong, bias, hateful, and non-accepting. Couching the issue in "race matters" doesn't do anything for me. I'm not as emotional about race as many think I am. What is acceptance of the gay lifestyle, Tim? Define it as fully as you can for me and I'll gladly respond honestly.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2006-10-17T16:53:17-06:00

ID

73755

Comment

When have I said I can't accept the gay lifestyle? If that's not what you meant here: I feel your pain, but some of us can't ever accept the lesbian/gay lifestyle. But personally I can be tolerant, respectful, and Godly-loving to anyone who isn't trying to harm or convert me. then it's very hard to tell what you did mean. It certainly seems to imply that you are including yourself in the "some of us." I'm not trying to get you to place any value, credence, or acceptance on my preference, and I can accept your preference without any hatred or condemnation. Neither am I placing any negative value, lack of credence, or non-acceptance to your lifestyle. But I bet you can't believe this. Liking vanilla ice cream is a preference. Again, sexual orientation runs much deeper than that. Which, BTW, means it's not a "lifestyle," as others have previously pointed out in this thread. I like to live in an urban environment rather than a suburban one; THAT is a lifestyle. Sexual orientation is not a lifestyle. I'm open to being proven wrong, bias, hateful, and non-accepting. Couching the issue in "race matters" doesn't do anything for me. I'm not as emotional about race as many think I am. What is acceptance of the gay lifestyle, Tim? Define it as fully as you can for me and I'll gladly respond honestly. The race-related examples were simply analogies. They certainly were not attempts to provoke you into an emotional response, and it grieves me that you perceived them that way. Acceptance of gay and lesbian people -- again, not a lifestyle -- simply means accepting us and treating us as ordinary people who happen to be romantically and sexually attracted to people of our own sex. Not making a big deal out of it is a major part of this. The parallel with race is clear here as well: if you make a big deal out of someone's race, it's fair to infer that you have problems with racial issues, racism, prejudice, whatever-you-want-to-call-it. The same applies if you make a big deal out of someone's sexual orientation. Which, BTW, I still don't really think you've done, but I'm having a really difficult time figuring out quite where you're coming from on this. Best regards, and still listening, Tim

Author

Tim Kynerd

Date

2006-10-17T17:41:12-06:00

ID

73756

Comment

Ok Tim that quote is old, misinterpreted and explained away. Similarities and likeness to blackness, yes. Equal, no way. Parallel, yes and no, but certainly debatable. I'll let it die though as any loving and accepting to all person would do. I served my purpose here by writing in a manner that defended, challenged, confronted, accepted, denied, unnerved, and provoked a conversation. I got skills. Don't ever fooled that silence in any way reflect acceptance or toleration.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2006-10-18T10:33:02-06:00

ID

73757

Comment

I meant be fooled.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2006-10-18T10:33:49-06:00

ID

73758

Comment

Ray, Laurel here. Just wanted to offer an apology for jumping down your throat as I misinterpreted your first post. Granted others did too, so the writing was a bit unclear. I like talking with you & don't mean to belittle you in any way. Also I liked that you discussed the ways in which you support your godchild who is lesbian even when her Dad cannot. Ray, that is a great thing.

Author

Izzy

Date

2006-10-18T10:59:11-06:00

ID

73759

Comment

No worry, Laurel. I know well how I effect/affect people, especially women. They either love or want to slap me. When in their presense, I still have a habit of maintianing a distance from them. In my young and foolish days those left-handed women got in way too many blows. I was looking for the other hand. One other thing. I'm often asked to give speeches on subject matter I have mastered. I won't let my wife even see what I write beforehand or attend, if I have a choice, because she won't like how I write or present myself. I'm not shooting for global acceptance or approval, just to do the right thing. Sometimes doing the right thing is doing it without any polish or worry about fallout or perception. Now, Kate is another subject. I'm vey hurt my her. CRUSHED AND BROKENED. She doesn't care. She hate me.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2006-10-18T11:35:58-06:00

ID

73760

Comment

yeah, that's the thing, we have to be ready to speak our minds and then take the criticism. too many times people don't speak up as they are afraid of others or afraid of being misunderstood

Author

Izzy

Date

2006-10-18T14:39:43-06:00

ID

73761

Comment

Ok Tim that quote is old, misinterpreted and explained away. Similarities and likeness to blackness, yes. Equal, no way. Parallel, yes and no, but certainly debatable. What (or, more properly, WTF) does "equal, no way" mean?

Author

Tim Kynerd

Date

2006-10-18T14:53:42-06:00

ID

73762

Comment

Ths situation and problems of being black and gay/lesbian in America and the world are not equal, parallel or very similar; and in my view should never be equated or nearly equated in any way. Our situation is merely being used by many gays and lesbians. As far as I'm concerned you have proven you're a phony by your comments on the race thread you started. You no longer have much credibility with me. Nit pick all you want. The cat is out of the bag and running off. have a good day.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2006-10-18T15:10:45-06:00

ID

73763

Comment

Our situation is merely being used by many gays and lesbians. Ray, I have to disagree here at least in part. I believe when it comes to civil and human rights that we always must draw parallels, and Erik Fleming did an interesting job of that once in a column for the Free Press. As writers we do this all the time; it's way you call empathy out of people—get them to feel how, at least in part, they would feel if treated the same way. And I personally know many gays and lesbians who are dedicated to civil rights for people of color, and work hard for human rights for all (those are my favorite people), and many in fact are both black and gay, and get hit with a double whammy. I will concede, though that the "used" part is probably true in some circumstances of gays and lesbians who only care about their own plight and cynically use others to prove their point. (Of course, that happens with members of other groups as well, including people of color.) I fully realize that the issues aren't exactly the same. However, I believe it is intellectually dishonest (or biased toward one's own plight) to not acknowledge the parallels. You mention Tim's comments on the other thread about race to try to prove your point. I actually think that your comments here and his there are very similar—a bias toward one's own plight and less sympathy for someone else's (and a bit of ignorance about how's own language about other groups can be very painful to others). That's natural, and human, but there's something transcendent and loving about pushing yourself to see it in yourself.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2006-10-18T15:47:54-06:00

ID

73764

Comment

Ray, the same institution that feeds and fuels racism feeds and fuels homophobia... Many of the arguments are the same... The attempts to control and belittle are the same... The ignorance is the same... The hatred is the same... It comes from the same place and goes in different directions and sometimes everywhere all at once. We may not be equal [which is hardly a requirement to say "we are both oppressed"] but we might as well be siblings or cousins when it comes to dealing with the oppression/repression/control. You better believe if 86% of Mississippi voted to limit your rights to marriage, I'd be marching right beside you and raising hell... As it is, I've been told by 86% of voting Mississippi the specific sex I may marry based on their own fear and ignorance... Much of Mississippi has remained silent and left us to be oppressed by the system. While Blacks, in theory (at least), have acheived equality under the law, our system is actively attempting to limit and legislate LGBT families and are progressing rather quickly.

Author

kaust

Date

2006-10-18T15:52:05-06:00

ID

73765

Comment

Also, this whole conversation reminds me of the fact that homosexuals were persecuted and killed by Hitler as well—and the fact that many people don't think that mattered as much as his killing Jews. Ray, many of "my" people have used the Bible to justify persecuting "your" people. I truly think these things are more "equal" than you're giving them credit for. And, respectfully, it's not us to you or anyone else to decide what kind of persecution matters more. People are killed and discrimated and belittled for their skin color. People make excuses for that, including pointing to "science" and their Bible. People are killed and discrimated and belittled for their sexual orientation. People make excuses for that, including pointing to "science" and their Bible. Some black people say that that gay discrimination doesn't matter as much as that against people of color. Some gays don't believe that discrimination of blacks still happens very often. Personally, I can find some parallels.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2006-10-18T15:52:43-06:00

ID

73766

Comment

Erik Fleming: They Have a Dream, Too

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2006-10-18T15:59:43-06:00

ID

73767

Comment

I apologize to Tim because I urged truthfulness, and when I got it, I didn't like it. Nertheless, I didn't do what Tim did, and all comparison of what Tim and I did on the two subjects are rough and barely equal or similar although well-meaning and done in love. I don't doubt that at all. I'm not partcipating in any more thread here or anywhere else for a while or maybe ever again. I'm bothered that anyone could make the arguments Tim made here then make the snap and careless judgments he made on the race thread. I don't appreciate that kind of blindness, and don't like to waste much of my efforts with the type. I've seen the type over and over again in corporate America, courtrooms, offices, stores, eateries, etc.. Say what you want to about me, but I know I'm even and fair. I make a great effort to cast out prejudices and to do the right thing. So does Donna and many more. Donna I don't deny similarities and never did. There great differences with the two as well. I wish all of you the best of luck. I'll drop a few of you email every now and again. Don't worry about me. My work output will go up exponentially. I might even find greatness - mastering of the impossible job I hold. I would apprecite it if no one wrote anything regarding my leaving. The struggle must continue to grow despite my imput. God bless y'all and good luck.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2006-10-18T16:15:57-06:00

ID

73768

Comment

Sorry, I'm going to respond. Ray, please don't walk away when the conversation gets difficult. That's what white folks have been doing for generations in this state. We need people like you at the table. When you stop to think about it, it makes complete sense that both you and Tim got emotional. Both of you are members of persecuted groups, and both of you hear other good people, in t his cae, fumbling around for language and understanding. You fumbled a bit with saying that you could never "accept the gay lifestyle" when you meant something else; he fumbled with not understanding continuing discrimination toward blacks in Cracker Barrell, but I think reached a greater understanding in the ensuing conversation. This is good. And there is no shame in getting defensive, considering that you're both trying to approach this from a position of love. (I know you both well enough at this point to say that.) So, sure, take a breather. But please continue posting here and participating in these conversations. They are invaluable.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2006-10-18T16:55:25-06:00

ID

73769

Comment

Also, Ray, I would have to read more closely to be sure, but I don't think anyone here has said that there aren't differences between persecution of blacks and persecution of gays. But many are saying that there are similiarities, which you're agreeing with. And the receivers of persecution can vary in many ways, but it usually comes from the very same place in the perpetrators of it. That's the place we need to shine our spotlight. I truly believe everyone in this conversation has more in common than they don't. Common humanity, despite our differences, not because of our likenesses—that must always be the goal. Somebody else said that, but it's very appropriate here. Big hug.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2006-10-18T16:58:23-06:00

ID

73770

Comment

Ray, I think you're needed on the site. Your comments are always some of my favorite. I think the site needs you, a man who has seen/experienced/plowed through so much, to keep these dialogues moving. And if things you said (even those that were misunderstood) upset other people for a minute, I think you are helping them to work through toward an understanding of why people might feel this way. Dialogue is good, even though, yes, it can be terribly hurtful. I hope you won't leave, though. -casey

Author

casey

Date

2006-10-18T18:01:47-06:00

ID

73771

Comment

I agree with Casey. Being upset for a minute on the road to somewhere special is fine. That's so different from nastiness delivered from a position of hatred and arrogance, and we don't get a lot of that in these parts, what with the TrollBlog looming and all. ;-) I think all of this has been rather amazing to read and watch. Who'da thought that some of the most close-to-the-bone dialogue in the country about homosexuality and racism would be occurring on the blog of a small newspaper in Jackson, Miss.?!? Think about it.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2006-10-18T18:27:51-06:00

ID

73772

Comment

Ths situation and problems of being black and gay/lesbian in America and the world are not equal, parallel or very similar; and in my view should never be equated or nearly equated in any way. Oh, I agree that they're very different. After all, as I previously posted, black children generally grow up in families with other black people; black people have legal protection against discrimination in employment, housing and public accommodation, which gays and lesbians generally don't; straight black people can marry anyone they want (since Loving v. Virginia). I'm bothered that anyone could make the arguments Tim made here then make the snap and careless judgments he made on the race thread. I don't appreciate that kind of blindness, and don't like to waste much of my efforts with the type. I think the other difference is that while I let the other bloggers influence my thinking about the issue I raised, and ultimately changed my mind about what I'd read, you've shown no evidence in this thread, that I can see, of the same openness. That holds despite your proclamation that you know you're "open and fair." In other words, I think we're both willing to stick our necks out, but it doesn't look like you're willing to consider changing your mind about this issue. I don't doubt that you want to be fair, and Lord knows that's more than half the battle, but based on what you've written in this thread, it doesn't look to me like you're there yet on this. I'm sorry to see you leave, because I do respect you even when we disagree, as we have done here and on the thread I started (and even when you refer to me as a "type," which of course is most offensive -- think about it). I wish you well.

Author

Tim Kynerd

Date

2006-10-18T19:29:51-06:00

ID

73773

Comment

Ray, if you leave, I'll cry. And then he Baby Jesus will cry. Then EVERYONE will cry, and then, what? Huh? Then what I ask? I'm learning much from the discussion. Don't feel defeated...approach it as a learner, not a fighter. But you can't walk away from the table. Becuase of you are valued here AND because of the Baby Jesus.

Author

emilyb

Date

2006-10-18T19:57:40-06:00

ID

73774

Comment

I'm going back on my word and posting one final time. What Tim did and I did aren't the same thing. I didn't backtract any n my comments. I only explained. Tim is a phony. He wants respect and consideration for being gay, a thing he or God created. I don't know and don't care which is the case. I said earlier I will give gays/lesbians whatever is in their best interest on this issue. Tim then played the old bigoted white man. The Tims of the world can jump to gay when beneficial and back to white when it's beneficial. Tim, you don't have the skills or ability to fool me. I wrote what I wrote to compel a discussion of the issue. I never belittled gays or lesbians. I never deceived. Nor have I lied about them. Some people want to play the misintrepation and I can't understand game at this point. I regret I tried to be helpful in this cause. I'll know better in the future. Maybe black gays and lesbians have a situation that's somewhat equal or parallel. However many black folks doubt white gays and lesbians share a great deal with us. I no longer care what any of you think of me. Write and say what you wish. The gay agenda is not the same as racisn against blacks. Intelligent people like me won't let politically minded and dishonest and dishonorable people like Tim relegate us or our causes or immutable or unchangeable characteristics to that of sexual orientation no matter how it's caused. Tim is not the only gay/lesbian who plays the game he got caught playing. Goodbye. All the best to the honest and honorable people I met through this process. Emily, et al, I will continue to email you.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2006-10-19T07:30:12-06:00

ID

73775

Comment

Ray, I still luv ya. ;-)

Author

Kingfish

Date

2006-10-19T07:50:51-06:00

ID

73776

Comment

Ray: so please don't go don't go, don't go away please don't go don't go, I'm begging you to stay If you live, at least in my life time I had one dream come true I was blessed to be loved by someone as wonderful as you Hey hey hey I need your love I'm down on my knees beggin' please please please don't go don't you hear me baby don't leave me now oh no no no don't go

Author

Kingfish

Date

2006-10-19T07:56:12-06:00

ID

73777

Comment

Ray, I don't think you should sign off forever. However, I don't think that Tim's comments about racism are any more sweeping and generalized than some of your comments in the past have been about women and sexism. Also, when, in your arguments you use phrases like "gay lifestyle" and "gay agenda", you're really not helping yourself. I personally have no freakin' clue what a gay lifestyle or gay agenda is, anymore than I know what the black lifestyle or black agenda or women's lifestyle or women's agenda is. Also, if you're mad at Tim, be mad at Tim. Don't assume he speaks for all gay men. I don't take your word as gospel truth from the "black community." Not sure why you're taking your frustration with Tim out on the rest of the LGBT community. I'm also really confused why the notion that there are parallels between the black and gay struggles for civil rights and acceptance provoked such an intense response from you. I'm assuming the comments your wrote about me way up thread were sarcasm. Fish, when will you learn to link to lyrics, or at least credit them? Copyright laws exist for a reason.

Author

kate

Date

2006-10-19T08:02:19-06:00

ID

73778

Comment

Those are the lyrics to Please Don't Go by KC and the Sunshine Band. I don't link the lyrics because several times I have gone to lyrics sites and wound up with trojans from them. I was merely trying to spare some of you that fate. ;-)

Author

Kingfish

Date

2006-10-19T08:06:55-06:00

ID

73779

Comment

One last point from me. The complaint that straight men have about getting hit on by gay men, and how inappropriate that is, yadda yadda yadda. Guys, if hitting on people in inapprorpriate situations and being overly persistent were a crime, then have the male population would be in jail. don't give me any sob stories about being "preyed upon" by gay men. Walk a mile in stillettos. Or hell, in your crappy sneakers while wearing your sweats, and still have men make comments, and then yoiu can complain. I'm sorry if you get squicked out when a man hits on you. Now you know what women deal with all the time. Squicky men that we have no interest in, hitting on us.

Author

kate

Date

2006-10-19T08:12:15-06:00

ID

73780

Comment

I don't think Ray is going to leave permanently. Clearly he's upset at the way this discussion has gone and decided to take a break from posting to let emotions diffuse. He and Tim are fierce debaters and it was bound to get a little heated, but I've read enough of Ray's posts to know how much he enjoys this forum, and he knows how much Ladd and others respect his opinions, so I trust he will be back eventually. And to an extent I understand Ray's response about the black/gay rights comparisons, and I share some of them. But it shouldn't drive a wedge between the groups, as there is some obvious overlap that should be considered.

Author

Jeff Lucas

Date

2006-10-19T08:12:28-06:00

ID

73781

Comment

Yes Kate, getting followed home more than once by men in their 50's when you are 19 is something to just yada yada yada about. taking a shower at the gym while some guy watches you taking a shower (there are no curtains at this gym) fondles himself, is just yada yada yada.

Author

Kingfish

Date

2006-10-19T08:46:15-06:00

ID

73782

Comment

King, I'm not sure I get your point... You've been hit on, insulted, and stalked by men? So have I... So has most everyone I know. Not saying much about our sex is it?

Author

kaust

Date

2006-10-19T10:00:36-06:00

ID

73783

Comment

Just confirms what Paglia wrote in Sexual Personnae. Knol, point was what Kate dismissively said about guys getting hit on by other guys. I just wanted to point out that some of us have seen or experienced some pretty disgusting behavior and was not yada yada as she wrote. Having some old man show up at your front door when you are 19 with a batch of rice krispy squares he cooked just for you when there was no way he could have followed you home that day, meaning he had followed you home another day is creepy to say the least. Damn lucky my Grandfather didn't kill him. I wouldn't call that a sob story as Kate put it.

Author

Kingfish

Date

2006-10-19T10:16:43-06:00

ID

73784

Comment

You've been hit on, insulted, and stalked by men? So have I Me, too. I remember particularly a lawyer I worked for in college showing up at my house with gifts, embarrasing me with my friends. I could go on, and on, and on. I'm not sure I see your point, either, Kingfish.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2006-10-19T10:27:33-06:00

ID

73785

Comment

Kate's point is right on. It's so *awful* when it happens to you boys, but we're lucky if we can get anyone to take it seriously when it happens to us. Go cry somewhere.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2006-10-19T10:28:39-06:00

ID

73786

Comment

The "gay agenda," Ray? That one is hard for me to respect.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2006-10-19T10:29:34-06:00

ID

73787

Comment

Ladd: I'm not crying at all. Just took issue with Kate being dismissive of that stuff and pointing out when guys get hit on by other guys, its not just a guy flirting or telling him how good he looks. I do not disagree with you about how women are treated at all. I know alot of sexual assault goes on and a couple of times when a guy has treated a woman like when I have witnesses that kind of behavior, I have intervened. and I disagree. there are quite a few people, men and women, who DO take it seriously.

Author

Kingfish

Date

2006-10-19T10:35:02-06:00

ID

73788

Comment

Hey King, I think Kate was just saying that women go through this every day. I don't think she was being dismissive or saying that it's lesser; what she was saying was, welcome to the club.

Author

Izzy

Date

2006-10-19T10:55:58-06:00

ID

73789

Comment

Fish, there's a *huge* difference between stalking and getting hit on, and I'm not being dismissive of either. What I'm talking about is that men can behave like jerks, whether they are gay or straight, and, therefore, I don't buy that as a special concern of straight men, in their list of complaints about men. Men can be pigs. If piggish behavior were a basis for rejecting a sexual orientation, then heterosexuality would not exist. And, Fish, when guys "hit on" women, it's not always "just flirting" or "telling her how good she looks". It can be dangerous and creepy. That's my point. It's not a "gay" thing. It's a creepy man thing.

Author

kate

Date

2006-10-19T11:09:08-06:00

ID

73790

Comment

I know that Kate. I think we agree now that we have posted a few times on this. I testified in a stalking trial as a witness once. Saw how bad that can be.

Author

Kingfish

Date

2006-10-19T11:10:52-06:00

ID

73791

Comment

Kingfish: I think the point that both Kate and Donna are trying to make is not that one should take any sort of stalking lightly, but that there seems to be a tendency by straight men to overreact to being hit on by gay men. Indeed, one of the issues that isn't often discussed in the politics of gay issues is the power struggle here -- there's a certain amount of power in being an aggressor in relationships, and we're used to having that power. (Indeed, when straight men find themselves powerless to a woman's wily cunning, abominations ensue, like Country music. :-) Serisouly...as a teenager, I spent a lot of time working in good restaurants. (I was still an "Alex P. Keaton conservative" at that time, so I felt I LOVED money. So much so that I missed most of the exciting adventures that my car had when my friends would borrow it.) I got good gigs in quality restaurants with professional servers...which meant, on a few occasions, I was hit on and propositioned by some older men. (I don't know that professional waiters tend to be gay more than the average professions, but I came across a few in that biz.) Some of it was uncomfortable...a straight kid of 17 doesn't always have a sophisticated let-down on the tip of his tongue for an invitation to drinks or coffee...but it was certainly something that's stuck with me when I think about these issues, both from a hitter and a hittee perspective. I think one of the reactions that straight men have to the whole issue is the notion that it might, eventually, become socially acceptable for them to be *hit on*. It's not rocket science that part of the worldview of those who are vigorously anti-gay is that they want freedom *from* it, because their uncomfortable or conflicted in some way. So, the girls are telling us -- join the club.

Author

Todd Stauffer

Date

2006-10-19T11:11:12-06:00

ID

73792

Comment

Damn...I'm such a slow blogger. Everybody already said what I said. (sigh)

Author

Todd Stauffer

Date

2006-10-19T11:12:50-06:00

ID

73793

Comment

cant' disagree with anything in that post iTodd.

Author

Kingfish

Date

2006-10-19T11:13:07-06:00

ID

73794

Comment

Figures that Kingfish would agree with Todd, rather than Kate or Donna, eh? (kidding) ;-P Well said, Todd. Join the club, indeed. And, guys, learn that you deal with unwanted advances not by killing someone or relegating them to second-class citizen status. And, if guys would, they could use the experience to learn more about how to treat women with respect. Just sayin'.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2006-10-19T11:18:04-06:00

ID

73795

Comment

Good post, iTodd, and a lot of truth in what you are saying.

Author

Jeff Lucas

Date

2006-10-19T11:22:35-06:00

ID

73796

Comment

Interestingly, gay men also get hit on REPEATEDLY and often insultingly by straight women. I've had women tell me they could "change me" or "one hit of this and you'll never go back to your man" and all sorts of insulting comments and aggressive behavior (including groping). I've been insulted by straight women when they were hitting on my partner and vice versa as they attacked the character of one of us to "convert" the other. It's odd that women become the aggressors when it comes to gay men... It's as if they have to prove their womanhood or something. On the other side, lesbians get hit on by straight men all the time. I'd wage it's even more aggressive and insulting than what most heterosexual females experience but won't bet money... Just a generalization. To summarize my stance: - If it's casual flirtation, get over it. Politely decline and relish in the fact that someone thinks you're sexually attractive. - If it's someone stalking you, insulting you, physically harassing you, etc, decline and quickly get the !#@$ out of there before it gets creepy or dangerous. *Do not take this as a compliment as the person is probably a low-life perv getting some thrill by debasing you.

Author

kaust

Date

2006-10-19T11:40:54-06:00

ID

73797

Comment

Ah, good point, Knol. There have certainly been a lot of gay men I've wanted to convert over the years. ;-) But I don't I ever stalked one, or got obnoxious. And I knew I couldn't anyway, but it was wishful thinking.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2006-10-19T11:46:46-06:00

ID

73798

Comment

Quote of the day: "Men can be pigs. If piggish behavior were a basis for rejecting a sexual orientation, then heterosexuality would not exist. " -- Kate Amen to that. Knol, good stuff. I've heard people say that sexual assault is about power, not sex, so it stands to reason that if a guy's jerking off in a public shower, he doesn't mean it as a compliment. But I've been occasionally hit on by gay men before, and I can't see why anyone would be offended by that sort of thing. I have also--and probably more often--freaked out gay men because they thought I was hitting on them and being all stalkerish and stuff because I've got such a darned gushy demeanor that a lot of people, of both genders and all sexual orientations, naturally assume I want to jump their bones. In at least one instance, I bitterly disappointed a much older gay man because he interpreted my gushiness as a sign that I was interested in him sexually, and was not happy when he realized I just thought he was an interesting guy and wanted to hang out with him and chat. He didn't want to have anything to do with me after that. Men are supposed to repress their affectionate natures--it's seen as sexualized behavior--and the majority of men who don't repress it are disproprotionately likely to be gay in my experience (because it's mostly gay men who have the freedom to reject the less pleasant parts of the male gender role), so I wonder sometimes if het men who think they're being hit on by gay men are in fact just reacting to that rare man who isn't wound up so tight in macho B.S. that he can't be warm and sweet to members of the same sex. You know, if you're straight and you've never snuggled up with another guy, you should try it. In Saudi Arabia (an otherwise repressed culture that I'm certainly not putting out there as a model in any other respect), men verbally express their mutual love, kiss on the lips, walk down the street hand-in-hand, and take naps with their heads in other men's laps. Our culture's way of handling male-male affection is very repressed and strange, and if gay men are as a rule are less likely to get caught up in that, good for them--we should all be so lucky. This isn't to speak of things like packs of middle-aged men chasing a guy home, of course, or otherwise assaulting him in any way, including unwanted physical affection (if it has been made explicitly clear that the person wants to be left alone--I'm not talking about the "oops, you're not a hugger" scenario, which happens to everybody at some time or another). That's creepy, and one predatory guy like that probably does more damage to LGBT inclusion than a dozen right-wing televangelists. Cheers, TH

Author

Tom Head

Date

2006-10-19T12:09:56-06:00

ID

73799

Comment

"When I say goodbye, it's never for long, because I believe in the power of love," so said Luther Vandross. But I ain't Luther. I'm so disappointed I didn't get more letters, emails, telegrams, calls and money saying please don't go. The money, calls, emails, telegrams, and letters I got were so appreciated though. The rest of y'all are some cold folks. Y'all don't give a sh!t about a pissed off brother. I'm not leaving because of Justjess, LW, Ejeff, Donna, Emily, Kingfisk, Todd, Knol, Kacy, Ali, Kate, and many more. I can't believe I said Kate, and what is sarcasm? I'm also not leaving because I don't want to make my enemies happy. My teachers and I would be disappointed if I hadn't made a few enemies too. I don't have any insecurities about my sexuality or any homophobia. I'm still not editing, changing, or altering my view of my preference in any way and I wouldn't ask anyone else to do so. I'm tolerant, respectful, and loving to anyone not trying to harm or convert me. I said this in the second or third line of my first email. Emotions, obscured perceptions, and expectations or stereotypes of me and the subject matter caused many people to ignore the totality of that email. I don't claim total innocence though. Indeed, I planned to leave the door open for various comments and observations. I'm unnerved by any attempts to equate homosexuality to being black by white people, but I will listen carefully to anyone who thinks they can do it. I have to see some consistency and dedication to the argument that homosexuality is a basis of color beyond the issue of homosexuality. In other words, you can't be my friend on the issue of this and my enemy or adversary on all other things involving race or other matters critical and essential to me. Equating homosexuality to being black is an attempt to harms me, in my opinion. Insisting I change my fair and considerate opinion on the subject is trying to convert me as far as I'm concerned. I already know the debate about this comment, but feel free to write and comment about it any way. I'll listen, but you know I have a little sense and I'm real hardheaded. My apology to anyone I've offended. I'm toning down my flaming and domineering torch so other dimly burning and flickering candles can be seen. Is this arrogance or what?

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2006-10-20T10:10:35-06:00

ID

73800

Comment

The rest of y'all are some cold folks. Y'all don't give a sh!t about a pissed off brother. Maybe we just know how to deal with him. ;-D The only thing I will say is that I don't think anyone here, unless I missed it, tried to equate being homosexual with being black. It's the other end that people are addressing—the persecution side. Every single group that has been persecuted is different than every single other one; however, they all do have the persecution in common. And, fortunately, the only way we can often appeal to people's humanity is by showing what people have in common, rather than focus on their differences. This is a tenet of good writing, making persuasive arguments and everyday empathy, and it's certainly something we try to do everyday at the JFP, online and off. That doesn't mean that everyone is comfortable with those analogies; in fact, they never are, at least initially. I remember the white bigots I grew up around wanting anything but to believe that they had anything in common with black people. But the key to change in this state and progress was appealing to people's humanity. It still is. I can understand and respect your sensitivity on that point, though. But that doesn't mean I will buy arguments that the struggle for rights for blacks and gays has nothing in common. I look for commonalities, not differences, and I encourage others to do the same. Otherwise, I hope you stick around us cold folks, Ray. We need your warmth. And you have a lot to teach us.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2006-10-20T10:21:12-06:00

ID

73801

Comment

My first paragraph was humor without the clarity I often prefer to leave out. Donna, I concede similarities from the persecution standpoint, and have never said otherwise. I could even concede parallels and have before, except I'm not ready to go where that vehicle often leads. I've seen thoughtless and hateful drivers of that car speed recklessly, truculently, and inconsiderately into equation too many times before. Many of these same drivers disliked blacks and never took the time to understand the plight and situations of blacks. Not all J. Edgar Hoovers, and the likes, are dead and I happen to know that. As we both know, more people are reading and being influenced by what we write than the writer here. No one of this earth can say I ever said those 2 struggles don't have anything in common. Saying some gays and lesbian have used the plight and situations of blacks isn't saying the two situations don't have anything in common. I have learned a lot from being a member of this forum. I've probably received more than I've given. And I kind of like the occasional disagreements and hostilities that occurr among people who are often allies. It adds genuiness, authenticity, and realness to the process. This probably should be placed somewhere else but I like it when people are writing and speaking out of anger and infuriation. A many sweet little angels have told me off and cussed me out over the years. Then I get to tell them I knew there was something else in there, too. And I've met many mean and gruff people who were hiding angels inside. Seeing those angels come out would make a lesser a man shed a tear. Machoism saves me every time.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2006-10-20T11:41:59-06:00

ID

73802

Comment

Ray, A wonderful black lesbian poet named Audre Lorde once said that there is no hierarchy of oppression. I half agree with that. As a radical feminist, I believe that the most fundamental form of oppression is sexism, period, with nothing else even in the ballpark; I think racism is also a fundamental form of oppression, though it has the benefit of not being as universal as sexism; and I think that heterosexism and homophobia, while more socially acceptable in this day and age, have seldom historically been as oppressive to as many people simply because of the institution of the closet. So while I agree that there is no hierarchy of oppression, if there were, it would go sexism-racism-heterosexism for me. Other people's mileage may vary. None of my arguments in this thread, near as I can recall, were directed specifically at you--the "why can't Casey get a woman" argument was directed more generally at the tendency we all have to look at lesbian and gay relationships in more sexual terms than we look at heterosexual relationships, but that criticism applies to me just as much as it applies to you. I have to be reminded, sometimes, that there are lesbian and gay couples who actually don't have sex very often at all, where sex plays no significant role in their relationships. The "Boston marriages" of the 19th century, in which women would live together as "spinsters," were probably not all celibate, but I suspect most of them probably were--and one would be hard pressed to say that they were not lesbian relationships just because there was no sex involved. Do I think you forget this sometimes? Yes, but only because I do. You're a good guy. We get enough cranks on this forum that when I find myself in disagreement with everybody else--and you know it happens from time to time--I feel pretty unwelcome, too, simply because that's the trolling pattern. (Though there are some delightfully contrarian long-term contributors who are in no danger of being thrown off--my old friend Ironghost, for example, and Kingfish, to name two.) But the truth is that neither of us are jerks, and that's what gets people ostracized--not believing unpopular things. I get the feeling you haven't really made explicit exactly how you feel about lesbian and gay relationships on a purely ethical level. If you have a purely religious objection to them, that's okay with me and I'm sure that's okay with everyone else, too. I have said many times that I think in the long run, the gay rights and gay inclusion movement will find some of its strongest allies in people who don't necessarily approve of homosexuality, but who disapprove of bigotry much more. You have already demonstrated where you stand on bigotry, so it's not as if you're in danger of getting the kiss-on-the-cheek, let's-go-take-a-boat-ride treatment. You're one of the good guys, and I'm sure we all know it. Cheers, TH

Author

Tom Head

Date

2006-10-20T12:57:49-06:00

ID

73803

Comment

Tom, when I sopke of disagreeing with allies here I wasn't speaking of you. My view on the subject is complicated. There is strategy and caution to go along with love, respect, toleration, and acceptance. I share a view more complicated than many because I'm trying to reconcile more than one view, and admit some of it comes from religion which I have already partly discussed. And I'm not accepting either view as totally correct or absolute. I'm likely not even open to persuasion any more to either version. On one occasion, after learning one of my deceased heroes was gay and I never knew it, I discussed the issue with the living Christian person I had the most respect for. Not a preacher. His answers or reflections were kind of confusing (indicative to me this isn't simple for many), but they spoke to love and ignoring or not making an issue of this. I admit I expected something more resolute or defining but didn't get it. So, I concluded as I had before, that I shoud treat people like I wanted to be treated - with love regardless. One final time, I'm willing to rise or fall with my complicated view of it. I can't imagine or understand why anyone would want or demand more of me than I have provided here. I have no pain or discomfort as a result of my views or beliefs on the subject. My only discomfort is trying to discuss them without hurting people who may wish I had more to offer them or a different view. I hope this answers some of your questions, but I'm realistic. Smile.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2006-10-20T15:00:12-06:00

ID

73804

Comment

Ray, it looks to me like the problem is that you weighed in on this thread and then realized you didn't really want to--that it was much more uncomfortable territory than you'd thought. I saw in one of your first responses that you didn't really want replies from anyone but Casey, but this being a public discussion board, that isn't really a realistic wish; and then I see you bow out of the thread, and implicitly out of the forum (ouch!), to avoid continuing a discussion on this topic. You seem to badly want to be let off the hook so you don't have to say things that you feel would be unpopular or hurtful. I would suggest, respectfully, that even if you do bow out of this thread, that maybe you have a private discussion of some kind with Casey or someone else and just kind of brainstorm on this. You are not usually reticent to discuss anything! I didn't think there were any topics that would scare off Ray Carter, and if there's an ideological tension in your head that you're still working to resolve or have resolved in a way that you think other people might find unsatisfactory, I might respectfully suggest that further frank conversation on this subject might not be a bad thing. I say all this with the earnest hope that we don't lose you as a forum regular, because frankly I enjoy your posts and the JFP community would not be the same without you. Cheers, TH

Author

Tom Head

Date

2006-10-20T15:19:18-06:00

ID

73805

Comment

Tom, I ain't leaving all the friends I've made here. The perceived contradiction in Tim's argument on both threads, and a claim too clost to equating homosexuality to being black for my taste, are the only things that enraged me temporarily. I'm not afraid to discuss anything on this. At this point I do wish I hadn't gotten in it. Too many people want to claim special powers and see that which don't exist. I'm unwilling to change my views of my preference. How many times do I need to say it. Whatever fallout occurs as a result of it, let it fall. I wanted to be in the conversation as a black person, and I wanted to make others participate. I even wanted to hear what others had to say. And I don't know any black people as tolerant of homsexual as I am. I don't even know any who would participate in this conversation. I don't need any further discussions. I know exactly where I stand. You and others may claim to not know, but I do. I don't have any unresolved issues about my feelings on it. I'm surprised so many intelligent people can't read and accept what has been duly written. I like and respect Casey dearly otherwise I wouldn't have used so much of my time on a subject, except for Shannon, that doen't concern me in any way. And this my friend is my final comment on the subject. I hope this places this article in the archives of those most commented on.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2006-10-20T16:13:31-06:00

ID

73806

Comment

Ray writes: And I don't know any black people as tolerant of homsexual as I am. I don't even know any who would participate in this conversation. Maybe I'm just weird, but I can name ten black Jackson-area lesbians or gay men, and another twenty progressive blacks who are very pro-LGBT, without even having to think hard. I wonder how much of this is a generational thing...? Cheers, TH

Author

Tom Head

Date

2006-10-20T16:26:31-06:00

ID

73807

Comment

I can, too. Some of them work right here at the JFP. And the ones I know don't think of it as being "tolerant." They just think of it as living and letting live.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2006-10-20T16:49:34-06:00

ID

73808

Comment

Besides the ones I worked with in Houston, I've had no other friendships, co-workers or connections. And I've never done anything to run from or avoid them. Neither have I sought occasions to foster any such relationships. I realize this might be part of the problem. Another thing, since I mentioned people claiming to have special powers, two days ago I predicted an effort to foster relationshps around this issue.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2006-10-20T17:01:46-06:00

ID

73809

Comment

Again I lie. I'll talk to Casey. In fact, I'll introduce her to Karen, a lesbian friend of mines in Houston. She's one of those co-worker I often talk about. Casey would have to convince me she wouldn't show Karen what I've written. It might hurt her feelings. Casey will love me after talking to Karen. I was so stupid when I met Karen that even after she gave me a tour of her apartment and showed me the bed she and her girlfriend slept in, I still didn't realize they were gay until the next day at work. I don't know if I wasn't listening or was so unaccustomed to the issue that my mind wouldn't register it. We would talk for hours about the job, my son, Christianity, God, people, and various issues except her lesbianism. I was too scared to mention it, and she never did. She couldn't stand a man trying to rap to her. Those are the only times I've seen her get mad.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2006-10-20T17:15:10-06:00

ID

73810

Comment

Ray, you're a good guy. FWIW, I share your cluelessness about sexual orientation. I was riding home from an LGBT-related function with a friend of mine, who I'd known for over a decade, and remarked at how disappointed I was that we were the only straight people in the room. He got a slightly pained expression and said: "Uh, Tom, I'm gay!" We'd logged hundreds of hours working together on various projects. I knew his ex-wife, knew his kids, he knew my mother and her partner, we had discussed everything from the nature of God to abortion and gay marriage, and I had no idea he was gay. I also have an embarrassing habit of getting raging crushes on women who turn out to be lesbians. I guess it's that I'm androgynous and drawn to androgynous people. Dunno. But I have to say it's an incredibly safe thing to do, emotionally, to have a little crush on a lesbian and know that it's not going anywhere, sort of like when you're a little girl with a crush on a movie star. When you know you're not going there, it gives you freedom to just enjoy the crush for what it is and not try to turn it into something it's not. Cheers, TH

Author

Tom Head

Date

2006-10-20T21:49:25-06:00

ID

73811

Comment

Tom for clarity sake I never had a crush on Karen. Our relationship was always as friends and co-workers until I left. We still emails each other some 16 years later. She's a big Christian and I have never seen any signs any Christains or anyone else was trying to abuse her. She always seemed happy but in need of a male friend to just talk to about life issues beyond sesuality. She liked the fact that I was fun, stable and a Christian. I guess had I tried to date her and she rejected me that would have been absolute proof she didn't like men. Smile. What women has the power to turn me down? Sho Nuff. I was married when I met her. Our whole work unit received a tour of her apartment with the roommate present.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2006-10-23T17:30:50-06:00