I've tried to stay off the "city's website sux" bandwagon for as long as possible because (a.) I know firsthand that it's a pain in the arse to design and run a good site and (b.) I didn't think it was as gawd-awful as the previous iteration.
Now I'm starting to wonder if the city really got what it paid for. (Hopefully there's still a little work to be done under that contract.)
First, check this screenshot from the page that purports to be the home page for JATRAN (click to Biggie size it):
Now, stuff like that happens. This site goes up and down thanks to a less-than-stellar Web host. We've had database problems before and we'll have them again.
But then, after seeing that at the top (and the broken image), I scrolled down the page to check out one of the links to a route table; the link won't load because it's set to a file:// URL.
file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/morehsmith/Desktop/
planning/planning/myweb3/Route%204%20Belhaven.pdf
In other words, whoever is designing the site isn't looking at the code at all; it looks like they're trying to do the whole thing in a WYSIWYG editor and not checking links once it's put up. C'mon. (If I'm being unfair because this page went up 10 minutes ago, I'm sorry. That seems unlikely, however.)
I'm left with the feeling that this is not just the commitment that we get out of the city to the Web, but also the commitment to public transportation. Who is going to look at this site and think "hey, there's the next Austin?"
You know, it'd be nice to know what the bus routes are, how to advertise on a bus and so on. Isn't it somebody's job to at least check the web designer's work? (By way of contrast, the freakin' Fondren Trolley has GPS.)
Previous Comments
- ID
- 112548
- Comment
In other words, the city needs to hire PROFESSIONALS to do this stuff. If not, they waste our money. Of course, the incompetent hires incompetence. And it gives me chills to think who down there in charge is supposed to "check" other people's work.
- Author
- DonnaLadd
- Date
- 2007-05-01T18:45:14-06:00
- ID
- 112549
- Comment
Unfortunately this is what has evolved from the old tried and true programmers. The industry has been piece-mealed out into sections of computers over the years. Similarly to Dr.'s, you can't just go to you general doctor anymore without having to go to a specialist in that field. You see the end result, nobody communicating to each others to see the whole picture.
- Author
- old&tired
- Date
- 2007-05-01T20:01:23-06:00
- ID
- 112550
- Comment
What I find interesting is that there are now two 'official' City of Jackson websites - and the old one does not redirect to the new. The old site: http://city.jackson.ms.us/ (neither redirects nor mentions the new site) The new site: http://www.jacksonms.gov/ Not a single page I could find in the new site has a DOCTYPE declaration, by the way - and just look at the W3C validation - 93 errors on the home page: http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.jacksonms.gov/ - plus there's a completely arbitrary use of CSS. Code like this:
- Author
- lucdix
- Date
- 2007-05-01T20:26:03-06:00
- ID
- 112551
- Comment
Well, have you had a chance to look at their own website? Check out the "Client List" LOL!!! The Upper Level Bar and Grill is a client!! Ha, ha! Wonder what those record label sites are like? They seem to have some sites that work and look pretty good. And many that don't? Upper Level! LOL!
- Author
- pikersam
- Date
- 2007-05-01T20:37:52-06:00
- ID
- 112552
- Comment
Agreed ludcix, no self respecting coder would ever let anything like that be seen on the web. But that is the problem, its only small shops now that have people that are responsible for the end product.
- Author
- old&tired
- Date
- 2007-05-01T20:55:14-06:00
- ID
- 112553
- Comment
Oh, I didn't want to get too mean (re the design firm) since this is just about the City of Jackson's site. Some of the sites in their portfolio look ok, but my objection is to the underlying code. I found this on the second site in their portfolio I tried: ======================== Warning: mysql_connect() [function.mysql-connect]: Can't connect to local MySQL server through socket '/var/run/mysqld/mysqld.sock' (2) in /home/8949/domains/ccclassic.com/html/banner.php on line 9 could not connect to the database because: Can't connect to local MySQL server through socket '/var/run/mysqld/mysqld.sock' (2 ================================ On other sites from their portfolio I found more code like this: =============================
What does HD Radio mean?
========================= So what difference does it make what the code looks like? Well, ADA accessibility guidelines (Section 504) say that "no qualified individual with a disability in the United States shall be excluded from, denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under" any program or activity that either receives Federal financial assistance or is conducted by any Executive agency or the United States Postal Service (which includes the City of Jackson). http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/ada/cguide.htm =================== The new site is most definitely not Section 504-compliant.- Author
- lucdix
- Date
- 2007-05-01T21:10:18-06:00
- ID
- 112554
- Comment
I just checked the web accessibility score of http://www.jacksonms.gov/home at this URL: http://webxact.watchfire.com/ (Enter http://www.jacksonms.gov in the 'check this URL' field and let it scan the page then click on the 'accessibility' tab to see for yourself) I count 313 accessibility errors on that page alone. Here's another web content accessibility report just for that page: http://tinyurl.com/2usjxt As I read the regulations (ADA - see link above) for sites for entities financed in any way by federal money, the City of Jackson's site is non-compliant and thus breaking the law. If you're going to rebuild a site (which was definitely overdue - the old site was a scandal), why not rebuild it to web accessibility code? It would actually have been faster to do it right than to do it as it was done.
- Author
- lucdix
- Date
- 2007-05-01T23:52:24-06:00
- ID
- 112555
- Comment
lucdix, I've BEEN SCREAMING for a year now about their accessibility issues. Further, why the hell do they have a cron job running from within the page? The beauty of cron is it runs itself... It doesn't need the help of a page load. Even worse? They're using a cron job for a weather badge. Why not simply use Javascript? As for the JATRAN map, Ben Allen, if you're out there listening, I'd love to help the city setup an interactive map using Google's wonderful API. I could easily load a database with all sorts of municipal information INCLUDING web-accessible and visual maps of JATRANS routes. For a slight glimmer of how the city's site could go Web 2.0, visit my market map. That's something simple. Imagine if all the neighborhoods were highlighted, all the JATRAN routes could be turned on and off, all the libraries, fire houses, JPD headquarters, etc were listed and searchable? Ben and other council members, seriously, an interactive map and a searchable listing of codes, city council transcripts, and more are what the city and visitors need and want... Hell, the site could be gross and ugly if it simply had more functionality and useful information (as well as accessibility)... Oh, and fewer errors. Maybe lucdix and I should partner and create a private site to trump the city's $25,000 mess? ;-) Time for a refund.
- Author
- kaust
- Date
- 2007-05-02T05:47:51-06:00
- ID
- 112556
- Comment
"Imagine if all the neighborhoods were highlighted, all the JATRAN routes could be turned on and off, all the libraries, fire houses, JPD headquarters, etc were listed and searchable?" ~myself OK, I plan to add the JATRAN routes to my own map assuming I can get my hands on them... Just for the hell of it. Maybe the JFP would want to buy into it??? ;-) It seems this site is the goto place for most any tourist and citizen interested in learning more about Jackson...
- Author
- kaust
- Date
- 2007-05-02T05:50:36-06:00
- ID
- 112557
- Comment
And, finally, lucdix pointed out something with the code samples above. The second code sample -- (hoping this comes through)
-- is from creating a document in Frontpage (no real web designer would do such a thing) or from converting a Word document to HTML (no real web designer would do such a thing). As a taxpayer and a designer that attempts to code all things accessible, I demand a refund!- Author
- kaust
- Date
- 2007-05-02T05:53:44-06:00
- ID
- 112558
- Comment
God... iTodd, you got me started. I'd also like to point out a painfully obvious error in the header image. Does anyone get the impression that the site's URL is mississippi.gov or jacksonmississippi.gov? Look again at this image and tell me if you see the same problem that I see... And, upon viewing the image, WHY is JATRAN under Government>Planning and Development??? Should there be a more appropriate category like Transit or even something more user friendly like "Getting Around"?
- Author
- kaust
- Date
- 2007-05-02T05:58:06-06:00
- ID
- 112559
- Comment
Knol....you big fat NERD.
- Author
- Lori G
- Date
- 2007-05-02T06:43:44-06:00
- ID
- 112560
- Comment
Lori, you're a fat-a-phobe and a technophobe... Get over it!
- Author
- kaust
- Date
- 2007-05-02T07:26:51-06:00
- ID
- 112561
- Comment
If I was a technophobe, how could I be completely and totally in love with you? Down with DUANE! Okay, okay. Please continue your discussion of big fat nerdy things.
- Author
- Lori G
- Date
- 2007-05-02T07:31:20-06:00
- ID
- 112562
- Comment
And once they get "Bill Pay" up and going for Water Service, who in their right mind would give the City bank account info. and passwords? Not me! Maybe you web guys could quash my fears?
- Author
- pikersam
- Date
- 2007-05-02T07:56:48-06:00
- ID
- 112563
- Comment
piker, if Trustmark relies on a third party banking system, I'm very sure the city would also. In other words, if Trustmark can't even write their own business application for online processing, why would the city? So, I think it'll be OK... Still, I'll probably continue to go through my online bank for the sake of simplicity.
- Author
- kaust
- Date
- 2007-05-02T08:07:04-06:00
- ID
- 112564
- Comment
I thought about pointing out the FrontPage/Word stuff, Knol, but figured I'd already gotten too geeky with my post. Yeah, it's pure laziness, absurdly inefficient, and amateurish beyond belief to code that way. WARNING: GEEKSPEAK ALERT Code like this: ==================
================ can and should be reduced to a fraction of that length using CSS, but I'll spare y'all any more code. That code, however, repeated a zillion times through the cite, is outrageous and atrocious. I agree with all of Knol's comments and suggestions above.- Author
- lucdix
- Date
- 2007-05-02T09:25:29-06:00
- ID
- 112565
- Comment
Look at all those spans!!! Wow. CSS is our friend, people!
- Author
- kaust
- Date
- 2007-05-02T09:53:35-06:00
- ID
- 112566
- Comment
Ok - let's say I'm a visitor to Jackson without a car and want to go to the zoo. Let's say I have a laptop to look up the route in my hotel room or across the street at the downtown Cups. I google 'public transportation Jackson MS' and Google has a link! I click on it http://www.city.jackson.ms.us/jatran/default.htm and get an error message which says: Not Found The requested URL /jatran/default.htm was not found on this server. So much for that idea - no redirect to the current site. But then let's say I read the Jackson Free Press about the city's new website at http://jacksonms.gov/home, go to it, try to find public transportation there. Well, there's no link on the home page, nor on 'Citizens', 'Visitors', or 'Services'. I'm not a business nor am I looking for news so I don't click on those tabs. I've heard there's a zoo and want to take my kids there. My kids are climbing up the walls wanting to go out. In desperation I look at ***every*** link I can find. I go to 'Government'-'Planning and Development'-'Planning Services???' - well, I do want to plan my day - and there, lo and behold, on a page called 'Planning & Develpment' (note the spelling) I find a link called 'JATRAN'. Of course I don't know what 'JATRAN' is but I'm looking at everything. (I first clicked on 'Transit Services' but that page was blank.) The JATRAN page promises me a map of routes but the map link doesn't work - nor do any of the individual links for routes and there's still not a word as to which bus I'd take to the Zoo from where. Ok - the decision's made. The kids can watch tv and we'll take the next Amtrak to New Orleans. I can get to Amtrak's schedule from the City's home page! Next time around I'll take my tourist dollars elsewhere - and write about how visitor-unfriendly this city is (unless you have a car) on the traveler's site I visit regularly. It's a shame, though; I really wanted to visit Belhaven, Fondren (always wanted to see a few of those 'liberal Fondrenians'!) and Mynelle Gardens, would probably have spent some money there if I'd been able to find the bus to get me there.
- Author
- lucdix
- Date
- 2007-05-02T09:59:09-06:00
- ID
- 112567
- Comment
This site is geek to me. Geek porn. I know obscenity when I see it. I mean, "cron job" makes me blush.
- Author
- DonnaLadd
- Date
- 2007-05-02T10:53:28-06:00
- ID
- 112568
- Comment
lucdix, you've highlighted EXACTLY why the city should be demanding a refund immediately. It's still not useful for citizens or tourists.
- Author
- kaust
- Date
- 2007-05-02T11:21:44-06:00
- ID
- 112569
- Comment
Donna, a cron job shouldn't make you blush... Well, that is, unless it's shown for everyone to see! ;-)
- Author
- kaust
- Date
- 2007-05-02T11:23:56-06:00
- ID
- 112570
- Comment
Knol is right. Businesses can buy crappy Web sites if they want. But this is taxpayer money that has been wasted. Council needs to demand a refund, and get this process started over so this city can finally have a decent Web site that actually works. 'liberal Fondrenians' I love that certain people are still using the same rhetoric from the 1960s–back when you were a "liberal" if you didn't believe in integration. The same still seems to be true today for a sad number of people. Fortunately, not nearly as many. What tickles me about that particular stereotype is that Fondren is a wonderful example of people of all ages, ethnicities, political ideologies and backgrounds working together to make a positive change in the city–which people like this hate, and have for a long time in this state. Their small minds just want to stereotype efforts at cooperation and diversity. I'd so hate to be a person who just wants to spew negativity every chance they get. I'm compassionate for those people, even if they are extremely uninteresting, and I have no desire to spend two seconds in their presence, listening to their bigoted statements and stereotypes as they try to make others as unhappy and xenophobic as they are. Oops, veered from geekdom, but that was fun. ;-)
- Author
- DonnaLadd
- Date
- 2007-05-02T11:28:16-06:00
- ID
- 112571
- Comment
Ok - I can't resist..... Go to http://www.jacksonms.gov/ and view the source - (a right-click in many browsers or 'view-source' in the menu). Search for 'title'. It should, in a correctly written page, only be at the top in the
section, e.g., here: ===========Official City of Jackson, Mississippi Website - Home =========== Search for 'title' again on that same page. You will find it at the ***bottom*** of the page in a unclosed paragraphtag prior to the DOCTYPE declaration. ===================
Untitled Document =================== Someone asleep at the wheel has put the DOCTYPE, TITLE, etc. in ***exactly*** the wrong place - starting around line 400. The DOCTYPE should start the document on line 1 or 2. ==================== (from line 400 on)Untitled Document (etc.) ================ The city should most definitely demand a refund for this shoddy work. Actually, I hope the bill hasn't been paid yet! It should refuse to pay it when presented.- Author
- lucdix
- Date
- 2007-05-02T12:36:26-06:00
- ID
- 112572
- Comment
lucdix, you're literally repeating ALOT of my own beefs from the previous forum post about this. This is not our first discussion about the site... I think I took it a little too geeky in those forums but I certainly pointed out and/or noticed everything you're saying. So, that's two tax-paying devs that can quickly spot MAJOR problems with compliance and accessibility. Try running it through W3C for a good laugh, luc.... ;-) "What tickles me about that particular stereotype is that Fondren is a wonderful example of people of all ages, ethnicities, political ideologies and backgrounds working together to make a positive change in the city" - Ladd Well, the neighborhood may actually be very diverse but the shopping and dining is definitely a little bourgeois. I can see where people would think Fondren Proper is a little uppity... Of course, I live and know NoFo where most of us feel like Fondren's leftovers or step children. ;-)
- Author
- kaust
- Date
- 2007-05-02T13:32:41-06:00
- ID
- 112573
- Comment
Even further, here's some blurbs from that forum discussion: - no document type declared - no meta information (keywords, description, author, copyright, etc) -- used by search engines. - no rules applied for search bots - png used as background with no lo-res alternative for older browsers - inline styles applied - inappropriate or non-existent styles applied - use of deprecated tags like
- a layout made completely from tables... the standard is now css-based layouts. - unsupported tags used to apply background images to tables - A PUBLIC LOGIN FEATURE FOR WHAT? - no alt tags applied to images (a MUST for government sites)... - HORRIBLE styles applied... No consistency in design/layout. - Author
- kaust
- Date
- 2007-05-02T13:34:11-06:00
- ID
- 112574
- Comment
BTW, looks like we blew out the formatting of this page with our code posts... lucdix, I'll probably delete our posts above or edit them to get the page to a decent width. I'm a formatting fascist!
- Author
- kaust
- Date
- 2007-05-02T13:35:16-06:00
- ID
- 112575
- Comment
Well, you guys have completely mucked up the design of my comment template, but it's interesting. (And, no, I don't want you going into the code of the JFP and seeing the tables and legacy font tags. I know, I know. It ain't pretty. That's one reason I was wary of criticizing the city's site in the first place on design/code alone. ;-) But the accessibility stuff is interesting and, to me, even worse than the XHTML/CSS crud (which clearly comes from FrontPage and its ilk...it's just generating a SPAN every time someone highlights some text and changes an attribute) is the dead links, scripts that don't work and, as lucdix points of very convincingly, the layout that has no concern for the actual needs of actual customers. Frankly, nobody paid me $25,000 for this site, and I didn't pay anyone that amount, either. We certainly should have gotten clean, modern code for our money -- and, even better, we should have a site that works.
- Author
- Todd Stauffer
- Date
- 2007-05-02T13:37:48-06:00
- ID
- 112576
- Comment
We certainly should have gotten clean, modern code for our money -- and, even better, we should have a site that works. By which I mean we should have gotten better for the City site...weird sentence, sorry. ;-)
- Author
- Todd Stauffer
- Date
- 2007-05-02T13:43:47-06:00
- ID
- 112577
- Comment
Hey, Knol, Interesting - I seem to have missed that discussion your forum post links to, but yes, you're absolutely right on all points. I remember discussing this in another post, however, last year, I believe. Yeah, the problem with posting formatting into posts is ruining the page formatting! The examples from the new Jackson City site are so egregious, though, that I thought I'd try to make them as understandable to non-web-folk as possible. Short summary for you non-geeks: these are ***real*** problems with the site, not just quibbles. Finding the problems was about as simple as you can get if you understand anything about source code. However, the FrontPage WYSIWYG (translation - geekspeak to English - 'what you see is what you get') folks designing over there apparently never look at the code. The problem with WYSIWYG editors is that what you *see* is only part of what you *get* and in this case the city does not want what it got otherwise - absolutely terrible code underpinnings to some fancy graphics - plus terrible usability and navigation and non-ADA-compliant code.
- Author
- lucdix
- Date
- 2007-05-02T13:47:29-06:00
- ID
- 112578
- Comment
"Frankly, nobody paid me $25,000 for this site, and I didn't pay anyone that amount, either. We certainly should have gotten clean, modern code for our money -- and, even better, we should have a site that works." - iTodd Yeah, the JFP does have some bad code under the hood. Every now and then, I'll pick at it and make some tweaks but the issues under the JFP's hood are nothing compared to the city's... I even viewed it on a Wii and it looks the same minus a few images overlapping DIVs. Of course, JFP is a private site that needs not comply with any standards. The city must meet strict guidelines for accessibility as stressed several times in several posts. As it is, a blind person could not easily access the site... And, yes, blind people do use browsers. The problem? These are things that any designer working for a government entity should know. Contrary to what the neo-cons would like you to believe, accessibility is KEY with government and that includes its facilities, documents, and even its websites. I still don't recall seeing a very public request for bids on this job... You'd think one of the larger, more established firms would have easily grabbed it.
- Author
- kaust
- Date
- 2007-05-02T14:06:38-06:00
- ID
- 112579
- Comment
Todd, I think your last post got me into a muddy manner of expression. I, too, murdered my words.
- Author
- kaust
- Date
- 2007-05-02T14:08:03-06:00
- ID
- 112580
- Comment
You guys, I just found this thread a day or two ago. The discussion interested me very much, as a geek/transit advocate type person. I've decided to try something for the hell of it. Look here: http://www.google.com/transit At the upper right, there is a Help link. If you follow that link, you can find the complete file specifications for supplying transit system data to Google Transit. I've just (barely) started the process of compiling JATRAN's data into this format. I want to continue the process, but there are a couple of things I need in order to do this. (1) I'll have to get a GPS unit, or find somebody with access to one, in order to map out all the stop locations. (If you think about it for a minute, and realize how long JATRAN's routes are, you'll realize this is quite an undertaking!) (2) I should probably really coordinate this with JATRAN. Question 4 of the Google Transit FAQ clearly says that they're pretty much expecting to get data from transit agencies, not from outside parties. Not to end on a sad note, but the city's old Web site, including all the JATRAN schedules (although who knows whether they're still current), is still available here: http://city.jackson.ms.us/ (It's the same as the "real" URL, with the "www" removed.) JATRAN is under the "City Hall" section for some reason. Best, Tim
- Author
- Tim Kynerd
- Date
- 2007-05-16T21:30:32-06:00
- ID
- 112581
- Comment
Tim, they are cutting the JATRAN budget. You didn't get the 3 page memo? ;-) It is cool your are doing this. It's sad our city is not cool enough to have an employee do it for them.
- Author
- pikersam
- Date
- 2007-05-16T21:55:36-06:00
- ID
- 112582
- Comment
This GPS unit's not cheap, Tim, but I just saw one in action in the Natchez area and it had even the smallest of back-country roads on its map (while it traced our route - amazing!). On the other hand, it didn't show the completed Natchez Trace section from Clinton to I-55. Nevertheless it might be worth checking out: http://tinyurl.com/2rmjj3 (The TOM TOM One Portable Navigation Unit) - $299
- Author
- lucdix
- Date
- 2007-05-16T22:12:45-06:00
- ID
- 112583
- Comment
Yeah, Pike, I'm not surprised. JATRAN's always had funding problems, which is why it's generally inadequate (along with the fact that, for dumb political reasons, it doesn't serve the suburbs). Lucdix, that seems to be what they generally run (good ones, anyway). That said, I don't primarily want to use it to find my way -- I want to use it to track my route as I drive over the JATRAN bus routes, marking waypoints at the stops. So the lack of accurate, recently updated maps isn't as much of an issue. Thanks for the suggestion! Best, Tim
- Author
- Tim Kynerd
- Date
- 2007-05-17T06:54:18-06:00
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