Jackson Free Press

The Clarion-Ledger is reporting:

Daniel Reed Cummings pleaded guilty this morning in the death of Robert Langley, an Ole Miss police officer. Cummings, a former Ole Miss student, was sentenced this morning to 20 years in prison, according to the Lafayette County Circuit Court Clerk's office.

Previous Comments

ID

96233

Comment

Am I the only one who thinks this is remarkable?

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2007-10-15T09:51:45-06:00

ID

96234

Comment

You can kill a cop and get slapped on the wrist if you have the connections, complexion and you're an ex-student of Drunk and Drug Abuse University, aka ole miss. If Jackson State was nationally known and revered for these chosen, condoned and proud diseases those ole miss graduates and supporters in the Mississippi legislature would be trying to snatch the charter.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-10-15T09:58:05-06:00

ID

96235

Comment

Instead of "diseases" I substitute pathologies.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-10-15T10:04:07-06:00

ID

96236

Comment

Ladd, in a sense one could think, "This is remarkable," especially looking at the history of this and how it has historically handed down ponishments for certain crimes. As one who deals with addictions, I am definitely for treatment; not jail, for those who have committed crimes secondary to the mind being captured by alcohol and other substances. My problem today is how a youngster in Jena, Louisiana could serve 12 mos. in an adult prison without parole; have a judge rule that is was an error to try him in an adult court; have the same judge who made the error re-arrest the kid and is now holding him for a violation of his parole. Making a long story short, it is hard to appreciate this sentence when young Black males continue to get even more time for drugs and alcohol violations and in many cases, they haven't killed anyone.

Author

justjess

Date

2007-10-15T10:06:16-06:00

ID

96237

Comment

I'm pretty much with you all the way around. I'm for treatment over jail, too. I'm also for a criminal-justice system that treats everyone the same. I shudder to think of the public outrage had he been black. We all know it's true. Speaking of Jena, weren't the original sentences for the fight longer than this guy is getting? And how long is this guy likely to *serve* for killing this cop?

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2007-10-15T10:11:03-06:00

ID

96238

Comment

Yeah, Ray. Jackson State students and alums are such angels. Not a felon on campus.

Author

xxgreg

Date

2007-10-15T10:15:33-06:00

ID

96239

Comment

Greg, what I said stands. Maybe a few felons. I hope felons are trying to get some education too. Jackson State probably has far less well-thought of drunks and drug addicts who are fraudulently placed in the world as exemplary citizens as your school does. Many of these people go on to hold positions that dictate what happens to others with problems of alcohol, drugs and other criminal activity. And they pretend these things are foriegn to them and show very little empathy, sympathy and understanding. You know it's true.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-10-15T10:26:54-06:00

ID

96240

Comment

Bye, Greg. Gotta leave for a few days. I'll miss your commentary.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-10-15T10:35:49-06:00

ID

96241

Comment

I'm kind of surprised that he got any jail time- wonder if they will quietly suspend the sentence for good behavior or something later.

Author

Rico

Date

2007-10-15T10:36:15-06:00

ID

96242

Comment

He got the maxium sentence for manslaughter. What's wrong with that? In the Mississippi Code it says all indictments for murder and capital murder can include indictments for manslaughter. Kid was smart plead guilty to manslaughter, gets 20yrs, maybe paroled someday and missed the death penalty. He did not get any special treatment from the courts.

Author

BubbaT

Date

2007-10-15T11:03:31-06:00

ID

96243

Comment

The minimum he'll serve is 14 years. Considering that Officer Langley broke protocol by reaching into and holding onto the vehicle AND that his wife approved of the plea, it seems like the smart decision by everyone (not to mention that the Fareses were on the defendant's side). It is the end to a very sad situation that will hopefully have a long-reaching effect on people's decision making.

Author

Droite

Date

2007-10-15T11:15:41-06:00

ID

96244

Comment

He got exactly what the law allowed. Ray, get off your jealous, racist rants. EP

Author

**Previously Banned Member**

Date

2007-10-15T11:48:42-06:00

ID

96245

Comment

Droite has a good point when he notes that Mr. Cummings had extremely capable counsel with the Fareses. That no doubt had a large role in securing him a sentence that was much better than he could have received However, the greater point that Ray makes--which are not "racist," but rather "race-conscious"--is to question whether a man of color at Jackson State who was drunk and on cocaine would have been put in the same situation as Mr. Cummings. Many already felt that the DA taking the death penalty off the table would not have happened in other situations. Similarly, Ray obviously thinks--as is well his prerogative--that if a 20 year old Jax State kid drunk and high had drug a cop to death no DA would let him take a plea. Again, that's not racist--it's being conscious of the societal advantages consciously or unconsciously accorded to others.

Author

David McCarty

Date

2007-10-15T11:53:08-06:00

ID

96246

Comment

Once again, Ray, you are wrong. I have never attended college in Oxford. Racism offends me, no matter the person who is the racist. Have a nice day.

Author

xxgreg

Date

2007-10-15T11:57:11-06:00

ID

96247

Comment

"Again, that's not racist--it's being conscious of the societal advantages consciously or unconsciously accorded to others". What a mouth full. It’s back door racism! Plain and simple! Money talks and bu#$%)it walks…………

Author

Truthseeker

Date

2007-10-16T13:41:01-06:00

ID

96248

Comment

Of course. Ray couldn't be racist, could he? After all, he's not white.

Author

xxgreg

Date

2007-10-16T14:00:25-06:00

ID

96249

Comment

Well, if you care about preciseness in language, it would be hard for Ray to be "racist"—which is using one's majority power to promote policies and practices that hurt a minority group, or race, of people—perpetrating an "ism," that is, by virtue of one's position in the dominant culture (meaning that you have the actual power to be a racist). However, he can certainly be "bigoted" or a jerk or plain wrong or whatever—but he's not quite in a position yet in Jackson, Mississippi or the U.S. to be a real "racist." (He'd be closest in Jackson, for what it's worth, and if economic power ever shifts here to match the demographics, then black people will be a in a position to turn their bigotry into racism. But we're not quite there yet. And we whiteys might as well build up some goodwill in the meantime by listening better. ) The irony is that one does not have to be a bigoted toward individuals in order to be a "racist." Politicians who don't have anything against people of other races, but who play the race card for votes, for instance, are racist, but may not be bigots. That's why the whole "best friend who's black" or "I hire black people" argument means diddley squat to thinking people. Folks, it really doesn't help to try to excuse away systemic racism by pointing to examples of individual bigotry. It doesn't change anything that is true. It just makes the people doing it look defensive and naive about what's going on in our society. We need to call out, and address, bigotry and racism. But it doesn't help to refuse to see the difference.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2007-10-16T14:18:18-06:00

ID

96250

Comment

And, by the way, Ray has not shown any indication that he would be "racist" if he were in a position to. Criticizing white people and the dominate culture is not "racist."

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2007-10-16T14:19:08-06:00

ID

96251

Comment

I rest my case.

Author

xxgreg

Date

2007-10-16T14:32:02-06:00

ID

96252

Comment

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This rac·ism /ˈreɪsɪzəm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[rey-siz-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun 1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others. 2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination. 3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [Origin: 1865–70; < F racisme. See race2, -ism] —Related forms racist, noun, adjective

Author

xxgreg

Date

2007-10-16T14:33:45-06:00

ID

96253

Comment

Greg, do you want to have a discussion here, or are you just looking for ways to individually insult Ray (that wouldn't be an -ism or an -istic response, by the way)? Why not engage in the discussion—rather than impress us with your obstinance on this point? Pasting watered-down Web definitions is not helping any case here. Do you patently refuse to consider the actual substantive differences between a racist and a bigot? Why not try to think a little here? This is the kind of crap that embarrasses me on behalf of my race on occasion. A black person, or another white person, dares to talk out loud about blatant race issues and ironies and disparities, and a few defensive white people start whining about black racism. This. helps. nothing. We have such a diverse group of people here who are willing to talk honestly about these issues TO each other. Try listening. Try talking. Try thinking. Lose the predictable defensive finger-pointing. That's the way we'll set ourselves apart from the old Mississippi, gang.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2007-10-16T14:42:30-06:00

ID

96254

Comment

Sorry. I honestly didn't know that posting the true dictionary definition of "racist" was being 1)insulting, or 2) obstinant. Pardon me for not following the party line on this blog. Pardon me for not realizing that Ray's comment, "an ex-student of Drunk and Drug Abuse University, aka ole miss" is the very definition of what you characterized as "willing to talk honestly about these issues TO each other". No problem at all. I'm sure that Ray's feelings are not hurt and neither are mine. And I promise not to interfere with the "diversity" on you website in the future. Keep up the fight against the CL. It's a worthy battle.

Author

xxgreg

Date

2007-10-16T15:03:04-06:00

ID

96255

Comment

I do think Ray was being extremely unfair to Ole Miss in his post. This case could have happened at State, Delta State, Southern, Hinds, etc just as easily. I think to just throw Ole Miss under the bus was wrong. He can point out that the kid may have gotten special treatment cause he's white; but, to say Ole Miss had something to do with it is wrong! I would think Ray would be happy the defense attorney did such a good job. That's what they are paid to do - get guilty people off or ease their sentence. Cases we can point to - OJ, Melton, the guy that killed all the Mexicans in the back of the 18 wheeler, and Vidal Sullivan to name a few. Sometimes they even get innocent people off too! ;-) In fact, here is a much clearer case where favoritism ruled in Hinds Co. It also points out that 20 years is the max for manslaughter in MS; so the judge in Oxford did what he could given the circumstances. I think both cases are tragedies all around. BTW: When I was in college all the good drugs came from State! 8-}

Author

pikersam

Date

2007-10-16T15:12:38-06:00

ID

96256

Comment

Well the state of mississippi is unfair to JSU and Jackson, as soon as the BOOM got suspended it was on the front page and as soon as anything happens on campus its front page or if something happens at the game is on the front page, but what about ole miss fans throwing beer bottles on the field after their loss to alabama and cursing and drunk, that never happened at a JSU football game win or lose because if it did yall know what it would be front page, so dont talk about whats unfair as a jacksonian and a JSU student we know what unfair treatment and news coverage is.

Author

NewJackson

Date

2007-10-16T15:44:01-06:00

ID

96257

Comment

Greg, don't be so damn sensitive. The point is that you don't even want to engage in the discussion, and you're being dismissive in that way that we non-have-all-the-answers-white-guys are very used to. You can quote Dictionary.com all you know, but why don't you do some research and read about the intellectual inquiry behind the gray areas in the race debate. Is it completely beyond you that it could actually be useful to distinguish between systemic racism (of the kind that makes it routine for white people to be treated less harshly for more severe crimes than people of color?) and individual bigotry? I promise that there are more in-depth discussions of these definitions out there than Dictionary.com (and it even put the most generic definition at the bottom I see). And I think you're both missing the point of Ray's statement about Ole Miss. Yes, it's intentionally provocative as he's wont to do (and get yelled at me by me for on occasion). But how many friggin' times have y'all heard people make statements like that about Jackson State, for instance? And the truth is simple: Ole Miss has many problems, as all colleges do. And many of its problems are those of privilege and what it masks and justifies. You wouldn't believe the conversation I had about race recently with a prominent Ole Miss student from a white academy in Jackson (who said he would do an interview with me about it for the paper, but we haven't done it yet, so I won't give up his identity). I'm not saying that I disagree with the idea that this young man doesn't have to spend his life in prison, and I don't believe in the death penalty for anyone. But had he been black, or a JSU student, many people would not have cared that the officer's family apparently asked for leniency. They would have called for his head anyway for killling a cop, regardless of where the cop's hand was. We all know this. Admitting it won't change this case, or bring that cop back to life, but it could make for more honest dialogue in the future between all of us. Ole Miss has much to be ashamed of (like even "Ole Miss" and why it's called that), and much to be proud of (just as the state does). A huge problem is that many, many people are still in denial about that, and come at everything from a position of privilege. I know it's hard to read Ray's post from a position that isn't the comfortable one. But try it. It doesn't hurt anything to feel empathy to why someone *would* feel a certain way, even if you disagree with them. I think the question, Pike, is why it ended up a manslaughter, right? Or, more importantly, what the resulting public outrage is, and isn't, and from whom. And, officially at least, defense attorneys are paid to give the accused their Constitution-guaranteed best defense. And isn't it true that Ray is paid to keep people from being executed by the state—not necessarily getting off completely? (Educate me, if that's not right.) Greg, the funny thing is that you ARE following the party line—for the state. Ray and I and many others don't because we don't believe in comfortable little zones based on our race and what we're supposed to say and be comfortable with according to our assigned skin color. If you read him carefully and regularly, like in conversations with Kaze about hip-hop, you'll see that he points his provocative radar in many directions, and that makes it's damn hard to call him a "racist." At least with any degree of credibility.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2007-10-16T15:46:16-06:00

ID

96258

Comment

You're right, NewJackson. The disparate treatment of youth of color in media has been proved over and over again objectively. (Hell, all you have to do is count.) Sadly, that same disparity is reflected in the criminal-justice system, and the way it treats people from "good" families who do cocaine and meth, as opposed to those from "bad" neighborhoods who do crack. And you know: I don't remember seeing one irate post about how poorly the Cummings kid's family raised him. I have compassion for him. However, if we cannot open our eyes with examples like this in front of our eyes because somebody is going to whine about reverse racism or such such b.s., then we will never acknowledge and deal with ethnic disparity problems as a society. And that, in turn, will continue to feed back into the cycle that people of color (like JSU students) are caught in—presumed guilty. I'm sick of living in a society that is pushing that cycle and afraid to call it out and demand change. And challenging that blind cycle, Greg, is part of that "worthy battle" against The Clarion-Ledger and other media that perpetuate the stereotypes. Not to mention individuals. And before some of you start complaining about easier standards for people of color, this is no way argues for holding non-whites to a lower standard. It's about holding whites to the same standard, and adjusting that standard *for everyone* if it needs to be. When I had my fellowship about zero-tolerance policies and the discriminatory effects of school discipline on kids of color, what I found was that schools (and criminal-justice system) have long meted out harsher penalties to people of color. In recent years, they are trying to mask that by applying the same ridiculous disciplines and sentences to white kids, too. Thus, why you hear all the stories about "good" honor students getting hit with harsh policies—their parents are, rightly, outraged because they aren't used to such harsh discipline for, say, a schoolyard fight. That is, we can't mask historical disparities by treating white people worse, too. We must see the diparities and then decide to change them. And in a case like a sentencing, we are talking about a clear *systemic* problem—thus, it is a true "racism" discussion rather than a tit-for-tat over who is more bigoted, na, na, na, na, boo, boo, than someone else. We all have bigotries. Dealing with racism means facing them and working to overcome them. Sadly, often our individiual contributions to problems of racism means simply refusing to believe that it is happening and do something about it. I watched my people in Neshoba County do that for years, and I'm not on that boat anymore. Life is too short.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2007-10-16T16:00:19-06:00

ID

96259

Comment

Ladd why does this state try to boost on things that have changed. Changed because of time not because of effort from the state of mississippi, iam embarassed when iam at work driving from the airport with passengers from out of state and when you get pass thru pearl the first thing you see is that confederate flag, And the perception about JSU students is push to blacks students from all over the state, when i ask black students why not attend Jsu they respond negatively " jsu is a party school, its to easy, yall ghetto at jsu, the education aint the same as ole miss or msu or southern miss" I cant do anything but shake my head. And the Football stadium for JSU, I think some white mississippians cant see themselves giving 80 million to jsu a black school for a stadium, but they can pay for a failed beef plant

Author

NewJackson

Date

2007-10-16T17:13:17-06:00

ID

96260

Comment

I think some white mississippians cant see themselves giving 80 million to jsu a black school for a stadium, but they can pay for a failed beef plant newjack Actually, there are some very prominent 'whites' pushing to have the stadium moved closer to JSU. Like Melton, they see the stadium being moved from that spot as a key piece in the puzzle to "take Jackson back." Think about it. You also have the developers, home owners, and business owners, in Fondren that are for moving the stadium. So, don't fret it will happen. Now, in the world that the media can print, it makes 'planning' sense to move the stadium over by JSU to further move ahead the master plan of revitalizing the area around JSU. A project hatched and launched by former mayor Harvey Johnson. What is Melton doing for JSU?

Author

pikersam

Date

2007-10-16T17:27:46-06:00

ID

96261

Comment

when you get pass thru pearl the first thing you see is that confederate flag I feel you. It's horrifying to see that flag waving. I'm so embarrassed as a Mississippian that so many people insist on it being a government symbol (which makes it an -ism problem). I'm sorry. It sounds like it's not happening for the right reasons, Pike. Sigh. I'll say this about JSU: We deal with some great young people from there. And in case anyone has forgotten, Adam Lynch is a proud graduate of our local university. Nuff said.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2007-10-16T17:42:35-06:00

ID

96262

Comment

Well, I for one - among many classmates - was on a committee to change the flag back to a magnolia design while at Ole Miss - in 1988! But, we only helped with that in between our drunken, drug fueled rampages. :-p Cause you know, that's what all of US do up there.

Author

pikersam

Date

2007-10-16T17:46:55-06:00

ID

96263

Comment

Watch the fallacies, pike. No one said every Ole Miss student is a drug-addled alcoholic. Defensive hyperbole won't move this conversation forward.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2007-10-16T17:57:59-06:00

ID

96264

Comment

Well, in a way I am twisting the stadium issue into a 'racial' matter when in fact it is part of a master plan that is actually good for everyone involved. It is good for JSU fans who will get to enjoy the "campus experience" on gameday as other schools. It is good for the Medical Center which needs to expand. And, it is good for the neighborhoods which need a little space for some growth of businesses/parking. What I wrote though could very well be something wrong minded people would claim on either Blunston's show or Ben and Larry. Generally, some people always think things are done for some darker reason. Or oppose or back it based on the wrong reasons. And, I am guilty of 'darker thinking' when it comes to Melton! ;-)

Author

pikersam

Date

2007-10-16T17:58:26-06:00

ID

96265

Comment

I'll miss hearing the sonic boom from my yard, though. I should just move closer to JSU. I'm telling y'all: Buy property in Poindexter. It's the future.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2007-10-16T18:00:23-06:00

ID

96266

Comment

Just joshing.... I think what amazed me at Ole Miss (and State) was riding down Sorority row and seeing all the Mercedes and BMW's. OMG!

Author

pikersam

Date

2007-10-16T18:18:20-06:00

ID

96267

Comment

I think what amazed me at JSU was riding across town for a football game at the vet stadium, paying this man who dosen't care about jsu or the game for parking and they making a grip and is not even there when the game is over to direct us out, we get 30% of the concession and pay the state 15,000 a game and it rains in the elevator and the press bozes has no heat or air conditioning and we have no chair back seats, thank you Mississippi for PimPing My School.

Author

NewJackson

Date

2007-10-16T19:37:53-06:00

ID

96268

Comment

The young man in Oxford got exactly what the law allowed. Taking the death penalty off the table was perfectly reasonable as this death was obviously not premeditated, although it did occur to a law enforcement officer doing his duty. His sentence was fair, and agreed to in advance by the officer's family, unlike a certain football player, who committed a double murder and was then acquited by an overwhelmingly non-white jury that obviously wanted to free a guilty black man who killed two white folks, a black man who had been so beat down by the oppressive white, prevailing system of capitalism, Hertz, and Hollywood, not to mention Bruno Magli. OJ went free, the result of the worst case of jury racism and nullification of the facts in this decade. I don't remember Ray complaining about this egregious travesty of justice at that time, or since. It's time to move on. This case is over, and the punishment met the crime. EP

Author

**Previously Banned Member**

Date

2007-10-17T04:27:55-06:00

ID

96269

Comment

Sorry I had to miss all of this. When I can draw the Eloise Plazas out the closet I know I'm on to something good. Wasn't ole miss (the proud name tells the whole story) voted repeatedly one of the party-iest schools in the nation. I've visited the school many times, and many schools just like it, and personally know drugs and alcohol flow like a river there. But since its a white school primarily everything has to be whitewashed publicly otherwise somebody might know the truth and call the situation what it is. Again, I say Jackson State has been treated differently time and time again. No knowing and rational person can factually prove otherwise. I'm glad the boy didn't get death. I don't know that he deserved manslaughter and question whether a black person would have gotten that under those facts. The fact that he was drunk and full of drugs, probably a natural state up there, usually doesn't impress jurors or me very much. Many jurors consider it agrravation rather than mitigation. Prosecutors cry a river when I ask for the same or similar deals for my often black or poor white clients. I often have to force justice from them. The parents or victims not seeking death is always a wonderful and welcomed event. As to whether the deal was fair remains debatable to me as the prosecutors never have to seek death in any case, but they seek it often when a black person kills somebody white, especially a black person killing a white police officer. They can offer life or less on every occasion if they wanted to. Some of the prosecutors are excellent human beings and rarely seek death no matter who's seeking it. If Eloise thinks I supported OJ on the two murders then she hasn't seen much of my writings concerning that. Recently was the first time I believe I ever defended OJ, and my defense was on the recent charges. My defense of him recently was for people like you, Eloise. Thanks Donna for defending me. You know me, and the others don't. Don't fret however I don't mind certain kinds of people calling me racist. I love it and know who the real racist are. They can't find a single fact to prove any racism on my part, and my daily walk of life proves otherwise. But I'm not one of those scared, placating or weak black person who white folks adore. I call it like I see it, to the best of my knowledge.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-10-17T08:45:58-06:00

ID

96270

Comment

The death wasn't premeditated, Eloise? How do you know this, friend? It take it this matters in all capital murder cases?

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-10-17T09:26:10-06:00

ID

96271

Comment

Like a river... Whatever Ray... Just keep making your broad generalizations... it's ok cause your poking at Ole Miss... And, I certainly don't look forward to a story about one white guy at Ole Miss speaking for all 13,000+ students there; just like I am not going to let a few outsiders define Jackson over the actions of a few thugs! We can find that 'white' guy at every school in America. What ever stories he tells are played out at universities across the land. Maybe we need to actually focus on other schools that are experiencing racial strife at the moment - like Columbia: The prestigious university, according to rally attendees, struggles with racial tension and prejudice in spite of its status as an elite institution with top-notch academics and a commitment to diversity. "Unfortunately, I'm not surprised," said one female African American doctoral student, who spoke on the condition of anonymity. "Columbia is not a tolerant community. There is not only racism but classism. I feel voiceless and invisible at times, but I've learned to let my voice be heard." Ivy League schools, high class private universities, and boarding schools are all filled with "white-bread" children who's only interaction with minorities is through the service industry. I am not saying we shouldn't work on race issues here at home because we are, and need to; but, to condone Ray's bigotry in the form of Ole Miss bashing is unfair - especially in this young man's case. If you had attended Ole Miss you would know that in the liberal arts college (and maybe the others) almost every class has a few days devoted to race relations - or at least it did when I was there. It was an unwritten school policy according to professors, and as I saw it then - groundbreaking. UM is not perfect, it needs work; but, it doesn't need unfair allegations heaped upon an already tragic situation.

Author

pikersam

Date

2007-10-17T09:35:16-06:00

ID

96272

Comment

Pike, you don't think ole miss and its student have traditionally gotten preferential treatment from the Mississippi Legislature with respect to appropriations (compared to black colleges), relaxed discipline for egregious conduct by school and city officials, and a pass on that infamous and disgraceful flag by school and city officials while supposedly geniunely recruiting and fielding black students and athletes. Has any other modern-day and progressive shool gotten away with the blatant racisn ole miss has to date. Just asking?

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-10-17T09:38:48-06:00

ID

96273

Comment

LOL..those "sweeping" generalizations don't feel too good when they're coming from the OTHER side of the fence now do they? That tickles me! Doesnt make it right but it damn sure helps ya see our point huh? and c'mon though we know that a percentage of the ole miss constituency is not "racist" per se', Ol Johhny Rebel definitely wasnt a stop on the underground railroad and from the looks of things tradition has a way of being maintained. Now, to actually speak on the subject Ray, I think it can be made pretty clear that that fella didnt MEAN to kill anyone. Its kinda hard to premeditate getting drunk, getting stopped by the police, and then dragging them several hundred yards. Im sure that wasnt in his plan. He was drunk and wanted to get away simple as that. In fact, its not even really a racial issue to me. I just jumped in cuz its humorous how the Ole Miss talk kinda got some folks emotional.

Author

Kamikaze

Date

2007-10-17T09:46:01-06:00

ID

96274

Comment

A little river, Pike. Maybe a pond. What is unfair is that ole miss gets a pass despite it's horrible record because its graduate are experts in denial and distortion, and many others are untruthful about it's heritage because the school's heritage is based in Mississippi's awful heritage. I often ask people who didn't attend ole miss why they fly and carry ole miss symbols. They say "I like it because it's the way mississppi is." Once I hear this, I can'y wait to get them into situations that cause for race neutrality. They fail at nearly a 100% rate. Yet Pike I move on. I'm convinced you're a good person who would personally do the right thing regardless or race. So am I. I refuse to mess up this great opportunity to show I'm above race but not oblivious to its frequent use in this country against people. Somebody has to point it out.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-10-17T09:51:17-06:00

ID

96275

Comment

Again I ask is premeditation necessary. People go into places just to rob, not kill, then somebody wind up getting killed without any plan to do it whatsoever. Isn't it still capital murder non the less? Not all ole miss students are drunks and drug abusers. Many of them are and the record reflects it.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-10-17T09:56:43-06:00

ID

96276

Comment

Finally, I apologize Pike. ole miss blemishless. Always has been. Always will be.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-10-17T10:01:14-06:00

ID

96277

Comment

First, the flag was officially banned by the school. The school flag was officially changed to an "M" with stars many years ago. You cannot find official NCAA sanctioned "Rebel Flags" for sell. So, the University - as an institution - is not blatantly promoting racism, and hasn't for many years! A minority of students, just like a minority of Jacksonians, are not a reason to castigate a whole University or a City. You will see the rebel flag at almost any university in the South on gamedays in one form or fashion. Unfortunately, many rednecks still have money, and still support school sports. But, that flag (or the Rebel mascot) are not in class with the majority of students who are studying to become better people and get jobs. So, if we want to keep judging schools by the actions on Saturday, then we are only belittling the hard work of all the other students who are doing the right thing, and the reason universities exist in the first place. Education has been around a lot longer than football and basketball. And, every racial incident that made news in the past 30 years that has occurred at Ole Miss has been met with a heavy hand by the University and associated organizations. One fraternity was kicked off campus and dissolved for several years after the Rust college incident in 1988. Second, you don't think MS State and Southern haven't gotten the same treatment as Ole Miss? You don't think Ayers styled cases aren't needed in Alabama, or Michigan (i.e. their law school) for that matter? Again, at least we are trying, and making strides, which is much better than some places. Thirdly, there is a rash of "ghetto hustle" and "illegal immigrant" themed parties at various universities around the country where the white greeks dress in black face or maids outfits. It is being met with appropriate outrage and disgust wherever it happens. Somehow, I find it hard to blame the 'university' when a group of kids act up. Is it LSU's fault that linebacker from Jackson keeps in trouble with the law? No... But, if you want to think this kid (from Memphis) got a lesser sentence because of Ole Miss go right ahead. I'm not saying his skin color and social status didn't affect the outcome of his case; but, Ole Miss, as a university, had nothing to do with it. And, you are welcome to go visit the initial thread on this kids story, and you will see that I was all for this kid getting put away forever. Still am.

Author

pikersam

Date

2007-10-17T10:14:31-06:00

ID

96278

Comment

LOL..those "sweeping" generalizations don't feel too good when they're coming from the OTHER side of the fence now do they? Ray As a sports radio host said the other day, people don't like stereotypes so why promote them? If you don't like being stereotyped then don't do it yourself. Two wrongs don't make a right. That's how I try to live... you should try it.

Author

pikersam

Date

2007-10-17T10:19:58-06:00

ID

96279

Comment

Ray, we can never change the past. But, we can try to make the future better. That's about all we can ask. Discussions like this help...

Author

pikersam

Date

2007-10-17T10:23:56-06:00

ID

96280

Comment

I dont even see how racism comes into play in this case. I have read the case file. This was not a murder. It should have been pled out. If the family of the policeman wants to file a civil case they would have a shot. Now, as to Ole Miss, the name itself is offensive. It does not refer to "Ole Mississippi" but to the wife of the plantation owner, Ole Massa. Hence, "Ole Miss."

Author

Willezurmacht

Date

2007-10-17T10:32:16-06:00

ID

96281

Comment

I know what's going on at the other places in the country. I don't count this as helping ole miss's case though. I have visited Southern and Mississippi State too. ole miss remains very special in an ole mississippi kind of way. The good students at ole miss who do the right thing know I'm not talking about them.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-10-17T10:35:10-06:00

ID

96282

Comment

Ole miss refers to ole mississippi in my view. I'll let the facts of its existence be my guide as to what it means, no matter its original intent. I can't debate the teacher on the original intent. The fact or circumstance of race or racism (2 diferent things) in prosecutions is routinely denied but statistics involving race tell a different story. Even our Supreme Court admits statictics tell one thing and people say something altogether different. So we have to look to intnet which is problematic for all.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-10-17T10:45:15-06:00

ID

96283

Comment

Well, if you had to compare the cities these schools are in, Oxford is way more progressive than Starkville or Hattiesburg ever will be. Maybe that is because we had to face our problems on a national stage unlike so many other schools. I wouldn't trade Oxford for the agricultural mecca of Starkville or the Rebel Flag lined byway of Hwy 49 that takes you to Hattiesburg for nothing. Now everyone else can hate on me today! ;-)

Author

pikersam

Date

2007-10-17T10:50:22-06:00

ID

96284

Comment

I have a case now where 2 cops were allegedly killed by a black man who took their guns while they were allegedly trying to arrest him without handcuffs. Let's see if I get any offer less than death, and whether there is an outpouring of empathy and sympathy by Eloise and the likes. It will be covered in the paper. Maybe y'all can start a thread and tell me why the ole miss boy deserved better and my guy didn't. The trial is January. I'm worned out, and gone on this one.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-10-17T11:08:49-06:00

ID

96285

Comment

Wille, to me, the issue isn't really whether there was racism in the case itself; it is a really good opportunity, though, to examine public responses to the case and consider how they would have been different had the murderer been of color. For instance, would Eloise be on here explaining why the law only allowed manslaughter in this case if he had been white? And the Ole Miss discussion is informative as well. As Kaze points out, it is intriguing to watch what happens when generalizations are put on the other foot, especially race-related ones. I know Ray well enough to know that it is his point here; however, he should made clearer to defensive readers that he is not saying that every Ole Miss student/graduate is a racist or anything else. But his point that the institution itself has more than its share of burden to bear is very true. And it certainly has made progress—and has much more to make, especially among its more privileged alums and students. Just like the state, the battle isn't over. Unfortunately, Pike, sometimes the only way to show people how bad stereotypes are is to turn the tables on them. It's the same thing that people do here to suburban Jackson-bashers. I wish the strategy wasn't needed, but sometimes it seems to be the only thing that gets through to people. Although many don't even see the point then, sadly. The truth is: It is not fair to generalize about Jackson State or Ole Miss. If you complain about one, you should complain about the other. If not, ask yourself why not.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2007-10-17T11:15:13-06:00

ID

96286

Comment

I did say I 'try' when it comes to stereotypes. I am not perfect, nor do I want to be. Just better one day to the next which is hard. Of course, I can't help myself to the occasional stereotype when it is used as you mention - like with the NJam'ers! It's also hard to have comedy or satire without stereotypes which means that stereotypes are somewhat true.

Author

pikersam

Date

2007-10-17T12:01:20-06:00

ID

96287

Comment

I forgot to thank David for seeing my point as well. Greg, I thought we were kinfolks. I guess I was wrong. Anyway, if I get a chance too, I'll see if Eloise and Greg can give me any advice on what to argue or say to the jury (likely will be all white) to keep my guy from getting executed. He wasn't drunk or high. The ole miss boy was trying to get away from the police just as my client was. The ole miss boy used a car to kill a police officer and my guy used their guns once tripped and not really aware what was transpiring. I wish I had the same prosecutor so as to put him on a guilt trip and to generate the energy, anger and outrage to walk on water, which the team will need to in order to overcome the odds in this case.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-10-17T12:44:10-06:00

ID

96288

Comment

Hmm, so what would happen to an Ole Miss student who was caught during a robbery and shot 2 police officers? Lets say he was even sober at the time. My guess is he'd get life at the minimum....

Author

GLewis

Date

2007-10-17T13:13:21-06:00

ID

96289

Comment

GLewis, you just gave me an idea for trial strategy. I can fabricate and say my client is an ex-ole miss student and he was sober when the killings occurred. Would anybody believe that?

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-10-17T13:40:56-06:00

ID

96290

Comment

I want to inject an observation I just made the other day while watching Ole Miss in a football game. The camera did a wide shot of the crowd, as it moved across the crowd it was obvious that 95 % of that crowd was white. Then the camera went back to the playing field where 95% of the players were black. It is ironic to see ‘Johnny reb’ on the helmets of men of color.

Author

Truthseeker

Date

2007-10-18T04:35:50-06:00

ID

96291

Comment

Hey, Ray. Post the news reports on your "alleged" cop-killer case. Off hand, I can't remember it. I'd be happy to get a refresher course and give you my opinion. Ya know, I keep reading all these posts about Ole Miss (I'm not an alumna). I understand folks' edginess about some Ole Miss alums and their sense of entitlement, because I've witnessed it, too. It comes in many forms, but the ones I'm most familiar with go like this: 1. Children of alums never consider going to school anywhere else, and their parents never suggest it. They know they're going to Ole Miss as soon as they know what a college is. (This is not much different from other colleges--Ivies, MidWest state schools, historically black colleges.) 2. Many of these kids go to school thinking more about partying and socializing than studying. (Is this much different than most college students, at least as freshmen?) 3. In this state, Ole Miss networking is extremely important to future "professional" referrals (law, medicine, dentistry, business, etc.) Certainly not different from Ivies, large land-grant colleges, private U's such as Vandy, SMU, etc. 4. Many Ole Miss students live much more "luxurious" lives than a lot of us ever imagined as students, e.g. condos, credit cards, fancy cars, decorators, jet vacations. This is a different experience than most college students have, although other elite colleges in the US would offer the same. 5. I could go on and on with the green-eyed monster of jealousy, but what would I accomplish, and this is my point about all the complaining that goes on about Ole Miss. Twelve step programs teach folks to understand what, and what not, they can "control" and change about their lives, and to leave the rest alone. I have learned that we cannot change anyone else's attitude by wanting it changed. All we can do is keep our side of the street clean. So my advice is this: Work as hard as you can improving yourself, and those conditions around you. Bitching about attitudes of others doesn't accomplish one damn thing. Change your attitude, and get on with your life. You will serve as an example to others in a positive way, and not as a carping complainer. Those who are "annoyed" by Ole Miss should just ignore it and get on with their lives. Don't like Ole Miss--fine. Do all you can to help students at a school you do like. But STOP with the bitching and kvetching! (To remind some about panning the crowd at Ole Miss--HBC in Mississippi are still unable to rise to the levels of white enrollment that are targeted. Most of the increases that have occurred are from foreign student enrollment.) EP

Author

**Previously Banned Member**

Date

2007-10-18T05:50:03-06:00

ID

96292

Comment

I would post it Eloise but I don't want it discussed at you next "alleged" meeting! You know the meeting I'm talking about. Surely you weren't talking to any black folks when you spoke of jealousy of ole miss. Truthseeker it pain me greatly that our athletes would go there. Where is the pride and self-respect?

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-10-18T07:44:37-06:00

ID

96293

Comment

You guys are too much... Like children of entitlement aren't at State. Ben Allen! Hello! You act like every snotty person in the State only goes to Ole Miss. Give me a $100 break. And the 95% white crowd thing... you see that at every university that is not in the SWAC, you see it in every NBA, NFL, and MLB game in America - including Atlanta and Detroit. The University of Mississippi had a black basketball coach, actually 2, long before any other major State institutions. Where are all the black head coaches at Southern? If they have a black coach it must be in a minor sport? The University of Mississippi began an African American studies program, along with other cultural studies, in the early 80's. BB King donated his whole blues collection to The University of Mississippi's Blues Library. They also publish the ONLY magazine dedicated to African Amercian blues music - Living Blues. Now if you pains you to see black athletes go to Ole Miss then maybe you need to work harder at telling them how horrible it is to get an education up there. Perpetuate the myth, tell the lies... Be sure to mention LSU's history, and that of the other colleges around the South. Maybe you should stop encouraging so many black youths to go into sports 'as the way out' period, and focus on them being professionals in the working world. If you don't think society if failing many black youths (and lower socioeconomic whites) with the sports myth, you are welcome to read my Master's thesis on the subject. And when it is all said and done, I would rather say I went to Ole Miss where history was made in the Civil Rights movement over one of the numerous other Southern universities that begrudgingly followed behind us, and the Fed mandate.

Author

pikersam

Date

2007-10-18T08:23:34-06:00

ID

96294

Comment

I'm pretty much going to stay out of this one going forward because it's devolving fast (and will be closed if it devolves too far, bear in mind). One thing I will say to Eloise, though, it that it is absurd to talk about jealousy about Ole Miss. There are plenty of people who are critical about the negatives about Ole Miss who could have went there if they wanted. It's not like it's that hard to get into, or out of.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2007-10-18T08:55:45-06:00

ID

96295

Comment

I agree with Pike about too many blacks looking to sports and rap music as way out of poverty. I try to discourage both unless they're especially gifted. Succeding at either is a minor miracle when you look at the chances of it. I was flying recently and decided to talk to a black kid sitting next to me. I asked about school and learned he was in his last year and was just barely getting by. I then asked what he planned to do as a adult and he said be a rapper. Lord knows I hesitate at telling anyone not to dream. Frankly, I didn't know what to say to the kid after that except to say good luck and make sure to finish school. This is why I know I need to have a talk with Kamikaze, and the reason I try to understand rap music. You can get an education at a place and not even be a part of it. Thousands of us do it all the time. I can't blame Pike for defending his school where it can be defended. Much of its past can't be defended. The present is looking more promising. Personally I won't hold the past against the school on every occasion, but I likewise won't ignore its past or present until I'm convinced a change has truly occurred. The last 2 to 3 presidents of ole miss are wonderful human beings. I'll be going up there in a couple of months for a few days of workshops, and I'll be sure to walk around the place surveying, as I have in the past. It does hurt my feelings to see black athletes playing like gladiators on the field or court while simultaneously observing the behavior in the stands. I have attended a game there before. I'm not seeking any understanding or empathy for this, just stating a personal fact. Allow me to exit this one too. I'm sorry if I unduly offended anyone.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-10-18T09:39:11-06:00

ID

96296

Comment

You certainly didn't offend me Ray per say, and I appreciate you seeing that I am trying to defend my school (our school - it is in MS) in a fair and factual way. I can't defend the past, and won't try. I can only tell you what the University has tried to do since those darker days. We still have some growing to do. And, the parents of kids in schools throughout MS has some growing to do. And, I defended it just as I would want a JSU or MVSU or MUW alum/student to chime in when someone tries to say they are inferior to other State schools. As you reminded us, they need to be reminded that our State leaders appropriated more funds to the big 3 (coincidently white) Universities more money, and only gave a fraction of education dollars to the other minority Universities. I hope I too didn't offend anyone as I was trying to have an above the table discussion on this.

Author

pikersam

Date

2007-10-18T10:54:54-06:00

ID

96297

Comment

Ray, Just post the newspaper articles on your "alleged" cop-killer case. We can look up these public notices. EP

Author

**Previously Banned Member**

Date

2007-10-18T12:25:29-06:00

ID

96298

Comment

Eloise why is it "alleged" rather than factual. I guarantee the televison stations and newspapers will cover it. I wish they wouldn't though. You'll see it in due time.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-10-18T12:29:54-06:00