Jackson Free Press

KDKA in Pittsburgh is reporting that Ashley Todd—the Susan Smith of 2008?—made up the story that she was attacked by a large black man at an ATM because she was a McCain supporter:

Police tell KDKA that a campaign volunteer has now confessed to making up a story that a mugger attacked her and cut the letter B in her face after seeing her McCain bumper sticker. Ashley Todd, 20, of Texas, initially told police that she was robbed at an ATM in Bloomfield and that the suspect became enraged and started beating her after seeing her GOP sticker on her car. Police investigating the alleged attack, however, began to notice some inconsistencies in her story and administered a polygraph test. Authorities, however, declined to release the results of that test. Investigators did say that they received photos from the ATM machine and "the photographs were verified as not being the victim making the transaction."

UPDATE: The McCain campaign pushed the mutilation story before it was verified.

UPDATE II: See the e-mails from the Young Republicans posted on comments below first pushing this story to the media and then retracting it later Friday.

Previous Comments

ID

139641

Comment

I mean, what can you say?

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-10-24T12:42:09-06:00

ID

139642

Comment

Here's what Fox News Vice President John Moody said on his blog earlier today: It had to happen. Less than two weeks before we vote for a new president, a white woman says a black man attacked her, then scarred her face, and says there was a political motive for it. Ashley Todd, a 20-year-old white volunteer for John McCain's presidential campaign, says she was mugged at an ATM machine in Pittsburgh (my hometown) by a big black man. She further says he threw her down, then disfigured her by carving the letter "B" into her face with a sharp implement when he saw that she supported McCain, not Barack Obama. [...] If the incident turns out to be a hoax, Senator McCain's quest for the presidency is over, forever linked to race-baiting. Checkmate. The race-baiting road Sarah Palin took us down two weeks ago ends right here. Nice work, governor.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-10-24T12:47:19-06:00

ID

139643

Comment

What a sick, stupid bitch. A story concocted by hateful, racist human trash. McCain and Palin both should both publicly denounce this sick piece of garbage.

Author

Jeff Lucas

Date

2008-10-24T12:58:21-06:00

ID

139644

Comment

Jeff --- what shows you how genetically challenged that woman is: the b carved into her face was backwards --- the same way it might be if a dimwit did it to themselves while looking in a mirror!!! This is their base though --- ignorant folk without college degrees and elderly people. When you strip mine the hills for your help, thats what you get --- WINGNUTS. These are the same ones who write all those nutty letters to the Clarion Ledger warning about Obama being the second coming of Karl Marx and Osama bin Laden put together --- Osama bin Marx. Are they obliged to print every wingnut letter they receive?

Author

FreeClif

Date

2008-10-24T13:11:07-06:00

ID

139645

Comment

This morning, a Republican friend sent me this: YOUNG REPUBLICAN - IN PITTSBURGH TO CAMPAIGN - BRUTALLY ATTACKED WASHINGTON, DC - Earlier today, The Drudge Report broke the news of an attack on a volunteer with the McCain-Palin campaign in Pittsburgh. The incident occurred when Ashley Todd, 20, was at an ATM Wednesday night. The attacker robbed Todd, and, upon learning she was a McCain supporter, beat her and then carved a capital 'B' in her cheek, reports said. Todd is a member of the Brazos County Young Republicans in Bryan-College Station, Texas. "This story is chilling," said YRNF Chairman, Jessica Colón. "As the investigation of Ashley's awful attack continues, we are grateful to know she is well on her way to recovering from this shocking experience. Support and prayers for her have been pouring in from all over the country as she goes through this difficult moment." "Ashley has been an active member of one of our state's most innovative Young Republican clubs," said Dorian Jauregui, Chairman, Texas Federation of Young Republicans. "She should know her fellow Texans are thinking of her and are looking forward to her safe return home." I wrote back with the link to Michelle Malkin's (!) blog saying it very likely was a hoax. The next big question is will Republicans question her family upbringing as they do young black criminals? What a symbol of race-baiting and hatred. One for the history books on the end, God willing, of this hateful era of political race-baiting.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-10-24T13:14:11-06:00

ID

139646

Comment

More to come bout this I am sure. Wonder if she'll get an interview with Hannity? Before her confession she probably had um lined up. Now they're "scramplin" away like rats.

Author

atlntaexile

Date

2008-10-24T13:24:38-06:00

ID

139648

Comment

I am a graduate of UT-Austin (hook 'em horns, #1). I have always suspected that those A&M folk in College Station were inferior dimwits (sarcasm). At least she is pro-America. This reminds me of the lady who killed her kids by drowning them in a lake and claimed some horrible black man did it.

Author

FreeClif

Date

2008-10-24T13:35:13-06:00

ID

139649

Comment

Oh, and Fox's Moody also wrote this before the truth came out; frackin' fool: If Ms. Todd's allegations are proven accurate, some voters may revisit their support for Senator Obama, not because they are racists (with due respect to Rep. John Murtha), but because they suddenly feel they do not know enough about the Democratic nominee. How would one have come to that conclusions even IF the chick hadn't lied!?! Oh, and I wonder if McCain and Palin have called the parents back and cursed them out, yet, for raising such a racist.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-10-24T13:35:55-06:00

ID

139650

Comment

Easy, Whitley, the iTodd is an Aggie. And he can make weird spontaneous noises to prove it. It is wacky that someone from such a "pro-America" wing of the country could possible do such a thing, eh? [sarcasm off] Clearly, the young woman needs psychological help. What's wacky is that the right-wing blogosphere filled up with this story even as folks like Wonkette and Michelle Malkin (!) were saying it looked like a hoax because the damn story didn't make any sense.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-10-24T13:38:11-06:00

ID

139651

Comment

Sorry iTodd, but still, "hook 'em horns"!

Author

FreeClif

Date

2008-10-24T13:41:11-06:00

ID

139654

Comment

And I believed her! Why would a white woman just up and lie on a big black dude? I was expecting to see her on Nancy Grace, Greta Sustern or somewhere. I'm trying to lose weight to keep from being a suspect in something like this!

Author

Walt

Date

2008-10-24T13:50:40-06:00

ID

139655

Comment

oh no Nancy will get hold of her on this..don't worry. CNN ain't gonna let this go and she seee's her 15 minutes "o fame" and movie deal forming up just good.

Author

atlntaexile

Date

2008-10-24T13:58:53-06:00

ID

139657

Comment

This is their base though --- ignorant folk without college degrees and elderly people. ~ Whitley Ok Whitley, I could go through a whole litany of people who fit into the Republican base who are neither sans college degree or elderly. And I, for one, find it offensive that you automatically equate the lack of a sheep skin with a lack of intelligence. I don't have a college degree and I am not ignorant, a racist or otherwise mentally challenged. I understand your disgust and anger at the offensive way things are shaping up. But to start hurling insults and dropping to the level of a "wingnut" doesn't make your case very well. It actually puts you in the category of what Ronni Mott (hopefully tongue in cheek) called an elitist liberal. The translation of Elitist Liberal is wingnut by the way.

Author

WMartin

Date

2008-10-24T14:05:03-06:00

ID

139658

Comment

This is my first time hearing about this story. I've been busy all day. Anyhow, Ms. Todd will face charges for filing a false police report. I would not be surprised if she makes Keith Olbermann's "Worst Person in the World" segment. This reminds me of the lady who killed her kids by drowning them in a lake and claimed some horrible black man did it. That was the Susan Smith reference made in the very beginning of the thread.

Author

golden eagle

Date

2008-10-24T14:07:08-06:00

ID

139659

Comment

yea but let's step back. Because something bad did happen to her. You can see that in the face. Those are black eyes. So something went down.

Author

atlntaexile

Date

2008-10-24T14:17:17-06:00

ID

139660

Comment

O.K. martin, I am only repeating what the pundits are saying and what their behavior indicates. The polls say their base is people without college degrees and people over sixty. IF you don't have a college degree AND you are falling for stuff like the line that and is the second coming of Marx and bin Landen, THEN, my friend, you have a double wammy --- you are both ignorant AND without a college degree --- you betcha. Might you agree that there are at least two categories among people without college degrees? Ignorant ones like that wingnut who mauled herself and intelligent ones like Bill Gates (no college degree)? Why do you feel compelled to include yourself in the former category WMartin? If you felt included in , then I apologize. I think that your equation of elitist liberal with "wingnut" is a personal, very esoteric definition. To end with irony, I MAY be a liberal elitist. Who wants to be run of the mill? p.s. MY definition of a wingnut is someone who believes unsubstantiated rumours, outright falsifications and generally discredited theories (such as we lived alongside Tyranosaurus Rex like the Flintstones). I think it is a more common definition than "liberal elitist". Liberal elitists don't beat themselves up and carve upside down Ms into their faces. WINGNUTS do.

Author

FreeClif

Date

2008-10-24T14:17:32-06:00

ID

139661

Comment

I believe Obama is leading in voters over 65.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-10-24T14:22:47-06:00

ID

139663

Comment

True. That change among voters over 65 has happened recently --- it seems over the past four weeks as many elderly people have seen their retirement funds eroded by the finanicial turmoil. Maybe Sarah Silverman's Great Schlep has helped also.

Author

FreeClif

Date

2008-10-24T14:30:31-06:00

ID

139664

Comment

It's the internals of some of these polls that are staggering, like the latest CBS/NYT poll: Mr. Obama has a 16-point advantage over Mr. McCain among women in the combined data of the last two polls; Senator John Kerry outpolled Mr. Bush by three percentage points among women in 2004, according to exit polls. Mr. Obama is supported by 45 percent of white women, and Mr. McCain is preferred by 42 percent; Mr. Bush beat Mr. Kerry with 55 percent of the vote among white women, according to exit polls. Mr. Obama is tied with Mr. McCain among white men, a group that President Bush won with 61 percent of their vote. Mr. Bush's father, George Bush, was favored by more white men than those who preferred Mr. Clinton when he won the White House in 1992.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-10-24T14:37:58-06:00

ID

139665

Comment

Sarcasm alert!> Degree or no degree, the white women seem to be smarter than the white men. WMartin, I have an uncle without a college degree who worked on jet engines in Vietnam. He has actually built planes that actually fly. He is one of the smart folk without a college degree. Some of us need that extra learning in college just to catch up :-) to the rest of you!

Author

FreeClif

Date

2008-10-24T14:44:51-06:00

ID

139666

Comment

I include myself in no categories. What you, or anyone else, says about me or people like me has no bearing on the way I view myself. I merely took offense at the offhand equation of people who either didn't have the time or resources or patience to pursue a college degree with people who are ignorant. It read like an unsubstantiated rumor to me. My definition of wingnut is one who is on the fringe and a zealot. Some call them Kool aid drinkers. Logic and facts make no difference to what they believe. Our definitions are the same there. A liberal elitist(to me)is one who believes they are smarter than anyone else (condescendingly so) so any amount of logic or facts make no difference on their opinion because the rest of just can't wrap our minds around the nuances of the problem because we lack the brain power.

Author

WMartin

Date

2008-10-24T14:58:27-06:00

ID

139667

Comment

My 80 year old aunt in Florida is one of the first people I knew personally that was supporting Obama. So the fact that the elderly are supporting him comes as no surprise to me. I told her at the time I was undecided and she got all feisty with me. So I had to look closer at the guy. She is a very smart lady.

Author

WMartin

Date

2008-10-24T15:03:52-06:00

ID

139668

Comment

You think I was referring to you? That's weird. Dude, I don't know you.

Author

FreeClif

Date

2008-10-24T15:04:01-06:00

ID

139669

Comment

I suppose one could argue that white men have the most to lose from our country's long era of white supremacy ending with the election of Barack Obama—or at least some of them think so. Of course, we all have so much to gain from that madness ending—as many white men and women well know—but some are in denial about it and will try to hold on no matter what. There are plenty of very smart people without a college degree. In fact, my mother never attended a day of elementary, middle or high school, much less college, and she was the smartest person I know. But, no doubt, education helps people overcome prejudices and widen their frame of reference. Or does most people. The sad part is that the demagogues try to turn "educated" into "elitist" as if a good education is a bad thing. I've pointed out before that someone who does that is no better than a kid at school picking on another kid trying to make good grades. It comes from the same ignorant and broken place. I mean, look at Palin: She went to what six colleges before she got a degree, and now seems to have disdain for people who actually *read* and talk about intelligent ideas. She makes fun of Obama as "elitist," presumably because he went to Ivies and knows more stuff than she does because he is intellectually curious. But, somehow, she is not elitist even though she thinks nothing of being dressed up like a $150,000 Barbie doll whose makeup for two weeks costs as much as many people around here make in a year. The real scoundrels in our society are the ones who try to play off people's ignorances and bigotries for political game. She a master of it already. And her party made its recent fortunes that way; with any luck, that era is over, however.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-10-24T15:05:40-06:00

ID

139671

Comment

Degree or no degree, the white women seem to be smarter than the white men. ~ Whitley No argument there :-| I like my appendages in the place they are.

Author

WMartin

Date

2008-10-24T15:08:46-06:00

ID

139672

Comment

Something did happen to the women but it happened before and despite Obama's run for the presidency. That lady has issues with big black dudes, and we all know there is a thin line between love and hate.

Author

Walt

Date

2008-10-24T15:08:55-06:00

ID

139673

Comment

You think I was referring to you? That's weird. Dude, I don't know you. ~ Whitley Why do you feel compelled to include yourself in the former category WMartin? ~ Whitley Probably because you called me by name. Do you not read what you post? That's kinda weird too don't you think? P.S. Just for the record I have nothing against being weird, I am weird and I love my weirdness.

Author

WMartin

Date

2008-10-24T15:16:26-06:00

ID

139675

Comment

Yea, Walt I got to agree with ya. Unfortunately, like Susan Smith she said it was a black guy because it's the most easily believable to the most people. What was supposed to be the meaning of the capital "B"?

Author

WMartin

Date

2008-10-24T15:50:28-06:00

ID

139676

Comment

Look at the College Republican blog where Ashley Todd was posting along with other volunteers. Their Twitter is going crazy with quips and snipes about her, and the comments are being displayed. And look at this picture one of the students posted. Finally, notice one of them now says she is on her way to Mississippi. Signs are, they're feeling heat down here, if not for Obama, at least for Wicker. And that's why Wicker is now going after Obama voters. Wacky thing, that Obama Effect.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-10-24T15:52:03-06:00

ID

139678

Comment

WMartin, where did I mention YOU by name in reference to people being ignorant? I did state that YOU were the one who implicitly included yourself in the category of ignorant people without college degrees that I referred to. YOU initially referred to me personally and I DID reply.

Author

FreeClif

Date

2008-10-24T16:06:35-06:00

ID

139679

Comment

Everybody is welcome down here. Maybe we can straighten her out or get her some help. She might be wacky but throwing her away is just as tacky.

Author

Walt

Date

2008-10-24T16:12:30-06:00

ID

139682

Comment

Oh, Lord. The McCain campaign pushed the mutilation story to media. This is getting more awful by the minute. This one might just be McCain's October surprise. Or his latest one. John McCain's Pennsylvania communications director told reporters in the state an incendiary version of the hoax story about the attack on a McCain volunteer well before the facts of the case were known or established -- and even told reporters outright that the "B" carved into the victim's cheek stood for "Barack," according to multiple sources familiar with the discussions. John Verrilli, the news director for KDKA in Pittsburgh, told TPM Election Central that McCain's Pennsylvania campaign communications director gave one of his reporters a detailed version of the attack that included a claim that the alleged attacker said, "You're with the McCain campaign? I'm going to teach you a lesson." Verrilli also told TPM that the McCain spokesperson had claimed that the "B" stood for Barack. According to Verrilli, the spokesperson also told KDKA that Sarah Palin had called the victim of the alleged attack, who has since admitted the story was a hoax. The KDKA reporter had called McCain's campaign office for details after seeing the story -- sans details -- teased on Drudge. The McCain spokesperson's claims -- which came in the midst of extraordinary and heated conversations late yesterday between the McCain campaign, local TV stations, and the Obama camp, as the early version of the story rocketed around the political world -- is significant because it reveals a McCain official pushing a version of the story that was far more explosive than the available or confirmed facts permitted at the time.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-10-24T16:27:51-06:00

ID

139683

Comment

Fake outrage and fake offense at non-existent offenses. Brilliant! You can always fool some of the people. If the election is close, they are hoping they can dupe enough dupes to win. They will keep on trying. I admire their stick too it-tiveness. Their consistent mode of operation is to manufacturer things for people to be offended by like when they manufactured the fake lipstick on a pig outrage.

Author

FreeClif

Date

2008-10-24T16:34:21-06:00

ID

139684

Comment

omg ... I can't believe I have to explain this to a college graduate. You didn't, you said "Why do you feel compelled to include yourself in the former category WMartin?" Which I also took as a not so subtle swipe at me for calling you out for broad brushing anyone without your precious degree. So I said, "I include myself in no categories. What you, or anyone else, says about me or people like me has no bearing on the way I view myself." Notice the "people like me" part? When I wrote that I was referring to people without college degrees LIKE ME. You weren't talking about me you were talking about people LIKE ME. The part about how I view myself was a general statement rebutting your assumption that I am somehow compelled to include myself in your views at all. Reading, it's fundamental "Dude". Didn't they teach that in college?

Author

WMartin

Date

2008-10-24T16:37:36-06:00

ID

139685

Comment

Whaaat? I hate to say it, but the only thing lower than a republican is 2 or more republicans. McCain has tried everythang. There is nothing else for McCain to do to please the republican base but stand on top of the tallesst mountain and scream N_____, N_____ , N______ like Stennis, Wallace, Eastland, Bilbo and Barnett used to do. If McCain won't do it, Palin and Cindy should be asked.

Author

Walt

Date

2008-10-24T16:38:10-06:00

ID

139687

Comment

Already, WMartin and Whitley, stop your bickering. There are bigger things to worry about. ;-) Truce?

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-10-24T16:45:22-06:00

ID

139688

Comment

In fairness to Stennis, he couldn't say Negro. Everytime he tried to pronounce that hard word Nigra or N______ came out instead. It was accidental on his part and I forgive him. I hope Obama offer McCain a job and McCain swaps parties with Joe Lieberman.

Author

Walt

Date

2008-10-24T16:48:57-06:00

ID

139689

Comment

lol, fine... I had moved on already.

Author

WMartin

Date

2008-10-24T16:51:36-06:00

ID

139690

Comment

If McCain has an ounce of integrity left, he will call a press conference and apologize for this race-baiting incident by one of his volunteers, announce that he is firing the aide who pushed the story, say that he is pulling all the "terrorist" and red-baiting robocalls and apologize for everything Sarah Palin has said at rallies to stir up all this hate. Then, and maybe then, he will not go down in history as the presidential candidate who has played the most hate-race cards since the 1960s. And they are telegraphing to these young, gullible Republicans that this is the way you win elections. It is simply execrable.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-10-24T16:54:33-06:00

ID

139691

Comment

Oh, and he should drop Palin as well; it couldn't hurt him more than having her on the ticket at this point.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-10-24T16:55:40-06:00

ID

139693

Comment

It was a false attack. I did not state nor mean to imply that ALL people without college degrees are ignorant right wingers (nor that ALL elderly people are), but WMartin for some strange reason is obssessed with construing it that way. If WMartin is offended by the fact that ignorant uninformed people (a disproportionate number without college degrees) are a part of the core base of the right wing I cannot help that --- polling data shows this is true.

Author

FreeClif

Date

2008-10-24T16:58:48-06:00

ID

139694

Comment

Dropping Palin would destroy her career and legacy as the most hateful white woman on earth with a $150,000 wardrode, to boot. And as Orentahl James Simpson would say some things are too good to just drop. LOL.

Author

Walt

Date

2008-10-24T17:03:03-06:00

ID

139695

Comment

omg !!! more?? Show me the poll that categorizes people as ignorant. You could have said the republican base is ignorant people and the elderly. But you didn't, you said ignorant people without college degrees. I guess you are trying to prove personally that ignorant people with college degrees are supporting Obama.

Author

WMartin

Date

2008-10-24T17:08:23-06:00

ID

139696

Comment

Allow me to be clear: This thread goes back on-topic now; other comments will be deleted without warning. Now, back on topic, I just saw a post on another site that said that the revelation that the McCain campaign was pushing this story makes Fox VP Moody's comment (from above) make more sense: If the incident turns out to be a hoax, Senator McCain's quest for the presidency is over, forever linked to race-baiting. I'm telling you: It's time that McCain give his own race speech/apology. This jumps the racist shark.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-10-24T17:12:32-06:00

ID

139697

Comment

Jay Bookman has a good post about how the racists in the right wing jumped all over this story, although it rang untrue from the beginning, with the notable exception of Michelle Malkin. He didn't seem to know when he wrote it that people in the McCain camp pushed it, and thus it tars them, but otherwise he's right on. From his column: Andy McCarthy at the National Review's Corner responded with a post so embarrassing he has now taken it down so nobody can see it. Dan Riehl at riehlworldview.com posted under the headline "Thugs for change," claiming that "Obama's run his campaign just like a street thug out of Chicago. Now we get to see what some of his worst supporters are like." Noel Sheppard at newsbusters.org chastized AP for daring to be skeptical of the initial report. Most of all, he wanted to know why the AP didn't report that the alleged perp was black. How dare they exclude a detail that had no bearing whatsoever on the alleged crime!! Josh Painter at redstate.com blamed the attack on Barack Obama, suggesting an "Obama thugocracy" was coming: When Obama "urged his supporters to get in their face, did it not occur to him that some of his more deranged followers might take him literally?" Painter asked. He was echoed by fellow redstater Erick Erickson, who wrote: "Hey! The dude was just doing what The One asked him to. Full pardon on January 21st." At Atlas Shugs, they posted the woman's photo and called it "the new face of the Republican Party." "Shame on those that doubted this poor girl," the post read. "Always ready to jump on the side of the leftists and thugs. ugh. Americans, I implore you to get off your asses and save this country from the radical left coup on the White House, Senate and House…. Perhaps the Obots misunderstood Obama urging his followers to Get In Their Face and GET IN THEIR FACES!" They got the advanced course of Camp Obama to cut up their faces."

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-10-24T17:21:21-06:00

ID

139698

Comment

It seems like they exalt in their ignorance. They jumped so quickly because they are not concerned with the truth. They are angry that Obama, that so-called might become President.

Author

FreeClif

Date

2008-10-24T17:37:07-06:00

ID

139699

Comment

It's classic racist thug rhetoric. They want it to be true so badly—that a random black man would carve a backward B into the cheek of a young, innocent McCain volunteer—that they couldn't wait until the story was factchecked before hawking it. The saddest part is that many people won't self-examine enough to know that if that is the story they choose to send around to help their candidate, that there is something gravely wrong with their reasoning. The fact that McCain people pushed it is simply breathtaking. He has surrounded himself with some of the most awful American specimens one kind find. And he seems bewildered that he's losing. Personally, I think the Great Spirit is in the mood to teach us all a lesson we won't soon forget. It's stressful, but it all has a purpose.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-10-24T17:42:50-06:00

ID

139700

Comment

And funny you mentioned "liberal elitists," Whitley. I just read an E.J. Dionne column that talks about the huge rift in the Republican Party and the "phony class war" that got them here. Here tis: Then there are those conservatives who see Palin as a "fatal cancer to the Republican Party" (David Brooks), as someone who "doesn't know enough about economics and foreign policy to make Americans comfortable with a President Palin" (Kathleen Parker), as "a symptom and expression of a new vulgarization in American politics" (Peggy Noonan). These conservatives deserve credit for acknowledging how ill-suited Palin is for high office. But what we see here is a deep split between parts of the conservative elite and much of the rank and file. For years, many of the elite conservatives were happy to harvest the votes of devout Christians and gun owners by waging a phony class war against "liberal elitists" and "leftist intellectuals." Suddenly, the conservative writers are discovering that the very anti-intellectualism their side courted and encouraged has begun to consume their movement. The cause of Edmund Burke, Leo Strauss, Robert Nisbet and William F. Buckley Jr. is now in the hands of Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity--and Sarah Palin. Reason has been overwhelmed by propaganda, ideas by slogans, learned manifestoes by direct-mail hit pieces. My prediction about Palin's future is that the radical fringe ("the base") will embrace her, but anyone reasonable and not hateful in the party is going to reject her and the fringe -- because it's not working anymore for one thing. I suspect it's going to take a while to heal the party. Which is too bad really. After the Dems have a two-year grace period to get some important stuff done—desperately needed thanks to the ridiculous years of destruction--I'd like to see two reasonable, non-hate-spewing parties duking it out again. But it's likely to splinter and have to rebuild.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-10-24T17:47:21-06:00

ID

139701

Comment

A lot of the stereotypes they have exploited are really myths. I believe in the right to bear arms. I espouse the belief of true conservatives --- that we should only fight wars to defend ourselves, not preemptive ideological crusades. The government should not intervene in private matters. People should not get something for nothing. I drive my 8 year old Nissan Frontier to Sunday school where I pray for our troops. A typical elitist Obama enthusiast from the Anti-American part.

Author

FreeClif

Date

2008-10-24T18:13:19-06:00

ID

139702

Comment

I pray for our troops, too, and I don't even have a car. ;-) My cousin died in Iraq. I believe in fiscal responsibility, and I believe in investing in each other and our country. I believe in keeping jobs in America. So I know what you mean.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-10-24T18:21:10-06:00

ID

139703

Comment

We also need to pray for the race-baiters over at FOX News: During the October 24 edition of Fox News' Fox & Friends, co-host Gretchen Carlson tied allegations -- since reportedly recanted -- by McCain supporter Ashley Todd that she was violently attacked by a black man in Pittsburgh because of her support for Sen. John McCain to a report that police are preparing for the possibility of riots on Election Day. Carlson reported: "Was politics behind this attack? This John McCain volunteer reportedly robbed at a Pittsburgh ATM. Now, this Ashley Todd, 20 years old, she tells police that after her attacker saw the John McCain sticker on her car, he punched her in the head and carved this 'B' into her face. So far, police have not confirmed this story." Carlson continued: "This comes on the heels of a report -- we told you yesterday -- that shows police concerned about rioting should Barack Obama lose this election."

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-10-24T18:40:03-06:00

ID

139704

Comment

My son's best friend who is 24 years old (and has two young children) is in Iraq. My father received three bronze stars and saw heavy combat in Korea and the uncle who was in Vietnam received a silver star. There has been a consistency to the distortion and misinformation from the right wing for years. The person who tried to propagate the lie on sthis site that Obama had received "hundreds of thousands of dollars" from Fannie Mae fits very neatly into the same pattern. I didn't need my elitist education to know as soon as I saw it that it was a lie because my mom taught me that if it sounds too weird to be true then it is probably a lie. I knew that was illegal and if the poster knew it, then McCain and all of the media would have known it also. Logically, there was no way it could have been true. When I heard the thing about the woman being beaten by a big black man who left a B for Barack on her cheek, my right wing distraction sensors went off right away. I immediately thought and it occurred to me that if you are marking a letter in a mirror it would look o.k. in the mirror. Maybe I picked up the art of suspicion in one of my elitist classes like Intro to Logic 101?

Author

FreeClif

Date

2008-10-24T18:41:45-06:00

ID

139705

Comment

Now that I've had some time to digest this story...I simply cannot believe that as low as the Republicans have stooped in this election season, they would stoop this low. I know I'm over-dramatizing it, but this could be the undoing of the Republican Party.

Author

golden eagle

Date

2008-10-24T18:42:26-06:00

ID

139706

Comment

Why are we all so mean in this world. It makes everything worse than it really has to be. There's so much of this ugly kind of stuff. Sometimes I'm so mean myself, and I have to wonder where it comes from because it's not what I ever intend. I think a lot people put stuff out there that if they could stop and think what they're doing they would not throw around so much garbage. But then I see my own many flaws and how I can't help myself. It's sad.

Author

willdufauve

Date

2008-10-24T18:47:01-06:00

ID

139707

Comment

BTW, earlier I had posted this statement mailed around to Young Republicans yesterday that a Republican friend sent me this a.m. (and I sent him back a warning that even Malkin thought it was a hoax). Note they state her unproved allegation as fact, but at least did not say it was a large black man: YRNF Logo - http://origin.ih.constantcontact.com/fs055/1101567661069/img/1.jpg?a=1102293894967 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CONTACT: RACHEL HOFF OCTOBER 23, 2008 P. 202.608.1417 YOUNG REPUBLICAN - IN PITTSBURGH TO CAMPAIGN - BRUTALLY ATTACKED WASHINGTON, DC - Earlier today, The Drudge Report broke the news of an attack on a volunteer with the McCain-Palin campaign in Pittsburgh. The incident occurred when Ashley Todd, 20, was at an ATM Wednesday night. The attacker robbed Todd, and, upon learning she was a McCain supporter, beat her and then carved a capital 'B' in her cheek, reports said. Todd is a member of the Brazos County Young Republicans in Bryan-College Station, Texas. "This story is chilling," said YRNF Chairman, Jessica Colón. "As the investigation of Ashley's awful attack continues, we are grateful to know she is well on her way to recovering from this shocking experience. Support and prayers for her have been pouring in from all over the country as she goes through this difficult moment." "Ashley has been an active member of one of our state's most innovative Young Republican clubs," said Dorian Jauregui, Chairman, Texas Federation of Young Republicans. "She should know her fellow Texans are thinking of her and are looking forward to her safe return home." The same friend just send me their follow-up statement from today: YRNF Logo - http://origin.ih.constantcontact.com/fs055/1101567661069/img/1.jpg?a=1102295792462 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CONTACT: RACHEL HOFF OCTOBER 24, 2008 P. 202.608.1417 STATEMENT FROM YRNF CHAIRMAN REGARDING ASHLEY TODD This afternoon, YRNF Chairman Jessica Colόn made the following statement: "Today, the Associated Press reported that Ashley Todd, the campaign volunteer who claimed she was attacked in Pittsburgh, admitted her story was not true. "This is a sad case. The judicial process will take its course. This issue has distracted long enough from the important work of the many Young Republicans volunteering all across the country in this crucial election. We remain focused on electing Republican candidates in just 11 days." Of course, what is missing so far is a public apology from Republicans to African Americans, and all Americans, for a racial hoax being perpetuated in the Republican name. That is McCain's task. Will he step up and lead here?

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-10-24T18:47:43-06:00

ID

139708

Comment

BTW, that first e-mail went out at 6:40 a.m. today. So the Young Republicans were pushing the story as fact, based on The Drudge Report. So it wasn't just McCain's Pennsylvania aide. It was the national Young Republicans as well.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-10-24T18:49:55-06:00

ID

139709

Comment

Now there's one diverse group of people.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-10-24T18:59:32-06:00

ID

139710

Comment

Well, there was an Asian-American and a Puerto Rican. Of course, what is missing so far is a public apology from Republicans to African Americans, and all Americans, for a racial hoax being perpetuated in the Republican name. I expect the sky to fall before that happens. About Ashley Todd...what was she doing in Pennsylvania? Not saying she didn't have a right to be there. Was she asked to go there and was she paid for doing so? Also, even is she was put up by the Republicans to do so, why would she want to put her own safety (and a criminal record) at risk for Repubs to score political points? Methinks she may have some mental issues, which if she does, I hope she gets help.

Author

golden eagle

Date

2008-10-24T19:14:20-06:00

ID

139711

Comment

They said she worked phone banks as a volunteer. I expect the sky to fall before that happens. Me, too. McCain is clearly too far gone down the hate road to even notice the turn-off to the high road. Talk about a fall from grace.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-10-24T19:19:09-06:00

ID

139712

Comment

I know I'm over-dramatizing it, but this could be the undoing of the Republican Party. I suspect it's the symbolic straw that breaks the party's back. Especially coming the same week as revelations about Palin's fashion orgy. Race-baiting + Greed = Sinking Titanic. It's up to the good ones, like Powell and Hagel, to either put it back together or jump ship.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-10-24T19:22:02-06:00

ID

139713

Comment

I heard about Todd this morning, and the backwards B threw me off, too, so I decided to wait to see if I could get more info. I got more info, all right. What bothers me most about this situation is that every time a hoax of this nature occurs, it makes it just that much harder for real victims of violence to be taken seriously. That fact that a woman perpetrated this hoax only compounds the possibility that female victims of violence will now be asked, "Did he really hit you, or did you do this to yourself?"

Author

LatashaWillis

Date

2008-10-24T19:39:07-06:00

ID

139714

Comment

It is absolutely a fall from grace, it's very sad to see one who has served our country so well and bravely stoop so low as to be the central figure in this hate fest. I can't even believe it. It's like a bad dream. If anyone had told me a year ago if I thought the McCain campaign would have been this ideologically bankrupt I would have thought them crazy.

Author

WMartin

Date

2008-10-24T19:45:06-06:00

ID

139715

Comment

McCain's legacy will forever be tainted by the goings-on in the last month or so of this campaign. The sad thing about it is that he didn't have to go down this road. I believe it's a case of Hillary Clintonism. Remember when Senator Clinton thought the nomination would be wrapped up with a pretty little bow on top for her and then she suddenly found herself having to fight for her "birthright"? I believe McCain is going through somewhat the same thing. He may've bought in to the idea that he had been down and counted out before and somehow found his way back into the game. But just like the 2002 Ohio State football team, there are so many times you can make a comeback. The next season, they lost a close game at Wisconsin. That luck will eventually run out for McCain.

Author

golden eagle

Date

2008-10-24T20:02:32-06:00

ID

139718

Comment

These headlines underscore the theme of the week.. Republicans Summon Ugly Old Ghosts: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/story/54745.html Right Group Forecasts End of the World if Obama is Elected: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081025/ap_on_re_us/christian_right_attacks;_ylt=AuP9XLg4q6BaEdgcXQwhfwYDW7oF

Author

FreeClif

Date

2008-10-25T10:55:22-06:00

ID

139724

Comment

Whitley, it is amazing to me that the older I get and the more elderly I become, the more I understand so much more clearly that all us old folks are no more alike than are all you young folks. And, suggesting that all elderly are stupid is not nice and not respectful. Know you didn't mean it that way. But, I must speak up. Anyway, please don't dump me off into McCain's Republican base. I simply refuse to go there and I will scream and kick and yell and likely say bad words. Cause sweetheart I may have a little age on me, but I still think for myself and choose my bedfellows. And LOTS of my fellow old folks do too. Peace.

Author

J.T.

Date

2008-10-25T22:28:15-06:00

ID

139727

Comment

I continued reading over the weekend via my cellphone. Some of the comments were so good I had to get on the computer to see who was making them. It was Donna. I'm not surprised, but I was hoping it was some other Mississippi white female I hadn't met yet who had come of age, too. Age is just a number to me. I don't plan to ever get old in the head or mind. This is why I like hanging with my grandchildren and other young progressive people. It is good to see some old people resisting the old ways. We are too quick to dismiss old people. I met some wonderful old people via the Ridgeland, City of Madison and Madison County Democratic Party. I was shocked to see old white people who were neither racists or republicans living in Mississippi. I met one from Texas that reminded me of Anne Richards. I adored Anne Richards. My only problem with old people is they let my unorthodox style deceive them about who and what I am.

Author

Walt

Date

2008-10-26T11:03:42-06:00

ID

139732

Comment

JT, Since I was mistakenly referred to again here's another example: Fact: Convicts are mainly functionally illiterate younger men without college degrees. This does not exclude the fact that not ALL illiterate younger men are criminals. I can't make this any MORE CLEAR.

Author

FreeClif

Date

2008-10-26T14:53:29-06:00

ID

139733

Comment

OOPS. My bad, I know I am going to be called out by a criminal who is offended at the insinuation that ALL criminals are illiterate, but to those criminals who are well read, college grads: sorry, no offense was intended. This is what was reported by the National Literacy Survey's research in prisons.

Author

FreeClif

Date

2008-10-26T15:00:08-06:00

ID

139734

Comment

Back on topic...My speculation about the possibility of genetic defects playing a role was not totally beyond the realm: http://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition=leschnyhansyndrome

Author

FreeClif

Date

2008-10-26T15:03:31-06:00

ID

139735

Comment

Whitley, my issue was with you calling us "oldies" not "goodies." I don't think I got off into the education or lack of it of criminals. Factually, my being old doesn't necessarily correspond with my being a part of McCain's Republican base. A bit of a mix up in your response to me, all the way around. No problem. Peace.

Author

J.T.

Date

2008-10-26T15:04:29-06:00

ID

139736

Comment

And, to be perfectly clear, Whitley, et al. I am not a part of McCain's or anybody else's Republican base. Never have been. Peace.

Author

J.T.

Date

2008-10-26T15:05:53-06:00

ID

139737

Comment

Look, it is a fact that up until recently the strongest part of McCain's supporters were those over sixty and those without college degrees. The fact that that is still probably his best hope does not mean that all older people or all those without college degrees support four more years of the same policies. I will repeat. There was no intent to infer that ALL older people or for anything. That is not true about ANY demographic group! If you want to believe that. Fine.

Author

FreeClif

Date

2008-10-26T15:11:27-06:00

ID

139781

Comment

Baquan, You make some good points. The most important of which, in my opinion, is exactly why the McCain Campaign has gone into a tailspin. He is focusing on why not to vote for Obama and not why anyone should vote for him. It dovetails with my earlier post about how ideologically bankrupt his campaign is right now. There has been a lot of talk about the conservative base in this thread which troubles me. It troubles me because this thread is about a story where a woefully misguided girl who probably has some serious mental issues did some crazy @$#&. To equate the republican base with that sort of behavior is just wrong. If people want to keep on saying and justifying it... its a free country but that don't make it right. Most republicans are good people whether they got their college degree or not and no matter how old they are. If people want to believe half the country are racists and bigots and they sit around all day thinking up ways to keep the black man down, maybe the girl from the story isn't the only one with issues. Could it possibly be that there are serious differences in philosophy between them and the Democratic candidate? I, personally, have given up on the Republicans. The candidates I mean. I'm not sure if there is anyone in the party as a viable candidate who is for fiscal responsibility or free markets anymore. They all say it, none of them do it. I, however, am not so arrogant to think that just because I have reached that conclusion that the Republican base should also. Maybe to be more specific I should say the people who historically have made up the Republican basis of support. Just as Whitley so eloquently (not) made the point that seniors were historically part of that base he had to retract it in the following posts because that support was shifting. If the poll numbers are any indication a lot of the base has eroded. I know for a fact there are racists in there as there are everywhere but I will go out on the limb and say they are more the exception than the rule. I do truly believe that even with my fiscally conservative beliefs that Senator Obama is the best man for the job at this time for a lot of the same reasons you give. But, if there was a fiscally conservative candidate on the Republican side I could believe in, it would be a different story and it would have nothing to do with race.

Author

WMartin

Date

2008-10-27T13:06:13-06:00

ID

139788

Comment

WMartin wrote: Who are these people you refer to? The Republican Party does not even represent half the country. If half the country were ignorant racists, then we would not have a competitive contest as we have seen. Thankfully, the entire country is becoming more educated and tolerant unlike some people who are part of pockets of resistance. Why are you obsessed with mischaracterizing what I have written here WMartin? Are you angry that I called you out about the lie you tried to propagate here that Obama had received hundreds of thousands of dollars from FannieMae? Get over it. I have not retracted anything about elderly people being a big part of the Republican base. Every informed person knows this is STILL the case. Older, less educated voters are more likely to support the less progressive ticket. I do not disparage ALL Republicans, only the ignorant ones who are destroying the party. One of my best friends is a Republican. I don't hold that against him since he is supporting Obama!

Author

FreeClif

Date

2008-10-27T13:33:57-06:00

ID

139790

Comment

"Most republicans are good people.... If people want to believe half the country is racists and bigots...maybe the girl from the story isn't the only one with with issues." Starting from slavery, James Crowism to now, where is the proof that half the country or more aren't racists or bigots and that republicans are good people? Haven't they tried to overturn Civil Rights, the New Deal, et al? What facts make them good people notwithstanding the conservative and republican policies and agenda which racists and bigots also support, embrace, withstand or condone? When has a majority of the white populace proven by voting, hiring, politics, housing, schooling, policies or non-discrimination of any sorts, etc, that they have come of age and past the ole ways completely or mostly? Aren't you engaging fantasy here. We can start with the premise that all whites in America were racist or condoned racism at some point and time as a result of the structure and fiber of America and Europe.

Author

Walt

Date

2008-10-27T13:41:50-06:00

ID

139792

Comment

We will see what the election says about race or racism?

Author

Walt

Date

2008-10-27T13:45:48-06:00

ID

139793

Comment

I am not mischaracterizing anything. You wrote what you wrote and anyone with a scroll bar can read it. Talk about mischarcterizing... trying to propagate a lie? What lie? I explained exactly where i got my numbers and even went a step farther to post an explanation of where they came from. I learned a bit from that so I don't hold it against you at all. I enjoy the back and forth of a good debate but when you are speaking the words you say mean things. I wasn't referring to you specifically only trying to get people to narrow their focus.

Author

WMartin

Date

2008-10-27T13:48:27-06:00

ID

139795

Comment

Folks, please stop the personal bickering and stay on topic. I know you can. And for the record, I do not believe half the country is racist, or intentionally anyway. Our country, however, has rewarded race-baiting candidates in the past, and the McCain campaign is hoping that we continue doing that. I am praying that this is the year when white America, or enough of us, stand up and say, "No more." They're certainly giving us the opening to.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-10-27T14:00:22-06:00

ID

139796

Comment

these are also the same Young Repub types that showed up in Florida in 2000 and disrupted the vote recount on several locations? Was Ohio in 2004 every really settled. I know a question was raised as to Diebold voting machines. But it's all locked up now. I for one am going to vote a straight republican ticket over here in GA not becase I don't want Obama to win but because I want as balanced a government as I can get. And the only way that is going to happen is for the republicans to hold on to as many seats as they can. And put all the right wing nuts together with the moderate "repubs" and the conservative dems and that will make for a good moderate spice to calm everything down. It will make Obama have to rule to the left of middle. If not there will be a "puscht" in 2010 and the republicans will sweep in again. And it will be Deja vu all over....member 18 AKA atlexile. hey when this is all over and were all fuzzy again.....can we resume talking about DT developement and architecture? ;)

Author

atlntaexile

Date

2008-10-27T14:04:31-06:00

ID

139798

Comment

Indeed, Member18 because republicans have surely balanced the budget and government the last 8 years.

Author

Walt

Date

2008-10-27T14:07:19-06:00

ID

139799

Comment

Has anyone referred to Rich's Rich hits it on the head: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/26/opinion/26rich.html?em=&pagewanted=print Pandering to the ingnorant folk's worst instincts is what created an atmosphere for that young woman to disfigure herself: in the atmosphere of shouts of "kill him", "terrorist", "socialist", "communist", no honest person can fail to see the connections.

Author

FreeClif

Date

2008-10-27T14:13:36-06:00

ID

139804

Comment

Good clumnn, Whitley. I'll have to read carefully later. I did see that word "farcical" as in Farce on Minnesota. Walt has juice!

Author

Walt

Date

2008-10-27T14:25:04-06:00

ID

139806

Comment

Stevens just found guilty. I'm shocked?! Let's run all the jokers off.

Author

Walt

Date

2008-10-27T14:33:01-06:00

ID

139808

Comment

yes but look at what happened when the house, senate and executive all finally fell under one party. A spending frenzy. and yes it was republicans. Same for the Dems under the first two year of the Clinton Admin. A left wing fright fest until the 94 elections when the repub party swooshed in. And what did we end up with besides the "Contract on America" and a senseless partisan failed impeachment? Blessed grid lock! and a multi billion dollar surplus by the end of "Clintonia". They couldn't spend money because they couldn't agree on to how to spend it. And that's what we need, no more spending. Bless their hearts when both houses and the executive are controlled by one party regardless of who, they just loose control and spend spend spend, start oil wars, socialize banking, raise taxes on everyone they don't like sell nights inteh lincoln bedroom, give way grae plots in Arlington, give way National Parks to loggers, lock up needed oil reserves for no reason other than because they can and (as my late mother use to say) all their sick sh*t. So take a hard look at balanced goerment it is really all the hope we have.

Author

atlntaexile

Date

2008-10-27T14:40:26-06:00

ID

139809

Comment

You got me Walt. I haven't personally polled all the Republicans...lol. I can only give you anecdotal evidence of the ones I have personally talked to. I would say, however, since you opened it up to the whole of the white populace, that a lot of what has been passed would not have been passed without a majority of white support. I would oppose reparations for slavery would that make me a racist? People used to believe the world was flat, some still do. So much for your premise...things change. I really hope that it isn't fantasy Walt. Because just like in this thread when you subscribe motivations to people that may or may not be true the real merits of the issues being discussed take a backseat.

Author

WMartin

Date

2008-10-27T14:41:04-06:00

ID

139813

Comment

"I am praying that this is the year when white America, or enough of us, stand up and say, "No more." They're certainly giving us the opening to." that deserves a great "amen"....

Author

atlntaexile

Date

2008-10-27T14:54:17-06:00

ID

139815

Comment

"Amen"

Author

WMartin

Date

2008-10-27T14:58:23-06:00

ID

139818

Comment

I have bet hard earned money that white Americans ARE capable of looking beyond race --- at least in their own self interest. I believe that there is a majority in that corner; however, I am still skittish. I could be wrong, but I increasingly doubt that :-).

Author

FreeClif

Date

2008-10-27T15:01:36-06:00

ID

139824

Comment

WMartin, as you may or may not know, I enjoy discussing the race issue. I'll have you to know though that I'm seeking the truth - that I can see and that I can't. I don't accept the propositions of others that can't be proven, but I always want to start at the correct premise and work forward. Not on a falsehood and then work the other way. I was interested to see what you thought. The world got round by facts not fantasy. Member 18, we disagree about what happened under Clinton's administration, by and large, but not totally. I understand your fears though, but I don't beleive a Democrat is any where near as low down and worthless as a republican. I need to see real evidence first. Not mere opinion, supposition, conjecture or surmise.

Author

Walt

Date

2008-10-27T15:19:17-06:00

ID

139835

Comment

I have noticed...lol. I probably don't think about it enough. I might start a thread in the forum for it. I do believe the McCain Campaign is race baiting and fear mongering. I think he sees his last chance at the presidency slipping away and he is desperate. I would point to the polls that show support continuing to erode for him and say it helps to prove my point. But in the same way I can not prove the Republicans are not racist, you can not prove they are. Unless we are talking about Strom Thurman, Trent Lott, Robert Byrd, etc... Well the last one is a Democrat. It bypasses the whole point though... if we have come down to the level of political discourse in this country where one side is screaming Socialist, Terrorist etc... and the other side is screaming racist, bigot, etc... we are all lost.

Author

WMartin

Date

2008-10-27T15:56:22-06:00

ID

139840

Comment

That is an oversimplistic, misleading analogy. The two things you compare are not the same. One side is screaming socialist, communist, terrorist, anti-American and it is FALSE. Those who are concerned about the racism, bigotry and provincialism being displayed are right to be concerned. To pour salt into the wound: The wingnuttery.

Author

FreeClif

Date

2008-10-27T16:03:55-06:00

ID

139843

Comment

I can't prove republicans are racists? Did you see the Farce on Minnesota or the farcical acts of Palin and McCain that followed? And those fans of black people at the rallies sreaming, N_____, N_____, N______. That doesn't tell me anything? I've never used any of that stuff. My mind is free to think and ferret out fodder.

Author

Walt

Date

2008-10-27T16:11:07-06:00

ID

139850

Comment

WMartin, you stated,". . .if we have come down to the level of political discourse in this country where one side is screaming Socialist, Terrorist etc.. and the other side is screaming racist, bigot, etc. . .we are all lost." I tend to agree. I also think that when people scream at me and lump me against my will into a group that they have generalized about, e.g., the elderly, the young, the educated, the uneducated, racist, socialist, Republican or Democrat (thought I do not intend to equate the positives or negatives of any of these labels), positive-solve-problems dialogue is circumvented and likely prevented. The screamer might feel better, but what a childish non-productive way to feel better, IF what the screamer wants is to actually dialogue and build coalitions and solve problems. I do agree, too, with Whitley that pandering to folks' worst instincts creates an atmosphere ripe for non-sensical acts and incites name calling. My conclusion, then, is that it is incumbent on all of us who communicate in such a charged environment to try to avoid generalizations and name calling for name calling's sake, which, I think, actually prostitutes our freedom of speech and closes the door on possible comrades who could join hands with us. And God knows that the condition our country in right now requires we all join hands and quit slapping each other. Peace.

Author

J.T.

Date

2008-10-27T17:06:19-06:00